Sturgisov Farm B4

[Reservoir Dog]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5719/sturgisovnv7.jpg

Updates:

Totally reworked terrain:
Much bigger map
More landscaping with more hills and trees for better natural defenses
Ojectives are further apart
Spawn protection (boy, did I hear about that one!)
Reservoir wraps around mortar position for more defense
More infantry:
4 snipers
2 MGs

More vehicles:
2 T34/85s
2 Panzer IV-Hs
3 Panzer IIIs
2 SU76s
4 transports per team

More resupply areas

Better objectives:
Church's stone walls have been enlarged to support tank defense
Mortar position has sandbags, hills, and a bridge for defense
Bunker's front and sides have been cleared so tanks can use sandbag areas for defense
Ammo depot is now an ammo warehouse/depot which tanks or infantry can enter into to capture

More time: 45 minutes

More map tweaking: (Hey I'm still learning)

There are more changes to this map but I will let you check it out on-line. RGN servers will be hosting this map over the weekend (and hopefully for a while) so please come and join us. I wanted to thank everyone for their feedback. Thanks to Dreck for some great mapping insight and a special thanks to Mike Normad for support, feedback, and some brutal honestly when I needed it. This is a great community and I hope you enjoy this version.

Reservoir Dog


Download Sturgisov Farm B4 map! (http://files.filefront.com/6953383/)

Download the UZ2 compressed server map! (http://files.filefront.com/6953401)

:d Bot support will be in the next version

[Reservoir Dog]

Wow. I got alot of good feedback after today. I agree with Moe that the sun is rather bright, when you are facing away its fine but looking towards it casts some shadows that can limit your view. I did play a game when the germans ran out of tanks towards the end of the game. There were some serious tank battles going on. I set the reinforcements level high so neither team should run out of player spawns but left the tank spawns at default. I will adjust both in next version. I have a number of "quick" fixes already for beta 5. What will be time consuming is adding bot pathing, tweaking terrain (ironing out a few "rough" spots and map optimization). I hope to have beta 5 in a few weeks so don't be shy. Please post you suggestions/comments. What did you like, and what did you not like?

Some of the fixes I'm looking into: lowering sunlight, more tank spawns, balance T34s with the IS2s (4 of each), tweaking moutain range (so snipers can't climb the mountains), bigger hill protecting german spawn, fix arty, fix church wall, lose flying plane for map performance, and finding a way for the water volume to destroy tanks (can anyone help me with that?)

[Drecks]

Although i'm not a tankmapfan and i prefer infantry, everyone knows :p :p
Here are some tips.... Ooh and all constructive....

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For the water you could use a minefield in the water.
Add a ROMinevolume with the killstyle all.
More info on how to add a minefield is told in the manual
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The church has this perfect lineair natural stonewall around it .
It looks a tad unnatural due the repetative and it's straight.
You could give that area a more natural look.
Look around you when are on the countryside. Almost nothing
is straight and in line. In a city you will find straight lines

The churchyard is empty. Maybe a little chappel and some graves
and bushes will make it more attractive for infantry.

For tankdefense around the church you could use some terrain dips.
Like it felt they dug some sort of pit to hide the tank.

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Some of the buildings has these dark shadows. Like this one
the weapon storage

http://www.after-hourz.com/misc/drecks/stm.jpg

You can solve this by adding some light entities. See the yellow spots.
Give these lights the same color as your zonelight but lower the
brightness and radius This might need some tweak.

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To increase performance you could make a zoneportal in that weapondepot.
It's not hard and by learning it now you save time for future projects.

There is more info about performance you could set culldistances and stuff
for that you could read this article.....

RO Level Optimisation Techniques.zip (http://www.after-hourz.com/misc/drecks/RO Level Optimisation Techniques.zip)
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Guess i'm in a good mood so much writing.......

Greetz Drecks

[Mike Nomad]

Naturally, all of Drecks suggestions are on the mark...

As for Moe's complaint about "brightness" I'd suggest he turn off Bloom HDR in the config. If its already off, then he should look at his Vid Card config. I and many others have yet to see a "brightness" problem. Believe me, had I or any of our regulars seen any "brightness" problems you would have been made aware almost immediately as that condition seriously interferes with long distance tank battles.

I saw where KH Reese mentioned getting rid of the KV1's and substituting them with T34's. Obviously, he hasn't tried the KV1 in our server or any server running the AB mutator. The KV1's armor has been made more accurate and the KV1's Cannon more accurate as far as true specifications are concerned.

Removing the KV1's and replacing them with T34's is not a very good idea. Please, keep the KV1's they work well.

I agree that the airplanes should go. Even as a fun novelty, after a while they get annoying much like the overbearing sound effects in another map that are waaaay overdone. More cover, and the corrections you've mentioned should bring us right along.

As a side note, the map had players going at it this morning at 7:00am. Incredible.

In fact, there hasn't been a dull moment on that server since we put the map up. That's from the first day of beta 3.:wink1:

I think it points out two major factors. Many players WANT TANKS/Combined Arms and when I say Combined Arms I mean including TANKS.... not just a damn token tank or two as some sort of convoluted appeasement for the armor fans. I believe the handwriting is on the wall. Combined Arms, fully equipped infantry and armor, is the future. That doesn't mean that other game styles are passé, it means Tanks/Vehicles are more popular.

I enjoy a good infantry map as much as the next guy... but I am sick and tired of maps being written in favor of one side or the other. Whether its for historical accuracy or mapper preference, it still ruins many maps. BALANCE is the key to a successful map whether its Infantry Only, Tanks Only or Combined Arms. The sooner mappers in general learn this FACT... the better for everyone.

I did not bring up the balance factor because Sturgisov is not balanced. Sturgisov is very well balanced. I brought it up because I am seeing certain suggestions/requests that could easily throw the map out of balance. Reservoir Dog, I beg of you, please keep a vigilant eye on balance. So far its perfect. The map does not favor either side.

Player skills should decide the outcome of the battles... never the map itself.

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;
I was on and off the "FARM" map all day and late into the evening (midnight before I got off), and we had at least 8 to 10 players all the time, and pretty close to a full server during most of the daylight hours!!! That in itself speaks to the quality, ingenuity, and balanced play of your map. No one had anything negative to say of your map, and everyone seemed to really enjoy themselves. Thanks for looking at the German spawn area protection. I was sitting on top of a rise in the mortar area, and noticed some kind of movement way off in the distance. I never played as a German so I did not know what their spawn area looked like back there. Thought I saw some buildings or possibly tent tops but could not really tell just what it was from the distance, noticed some type of movement and something there appeared to have a yellowish color to it so I assumed it must be AXIS. I lobed a few HE rounds with an arcing trajectory to kinda see what was up, then realized I had numerous German armour reinforcements smoking in their spawn. One T-34/85 can easily "rape" the German spawners and control the play without even seeing their tanks. Very, very good effort and nice job on this map and I am looking forward to the next Beta release!:bravo: Meantime you will find me on the farm "HARVESTING" German Armour! :p OneShot

[TruSlaughter]

the suggestions/improvements seem to be working well. only played Sat. for a short while then had to go clean 4" sleet off driveway and sidewalks. going off to the farm as we speak see ya there

[Reservoir Dog]

Thanks for input. All of it is good info. I really appreciate an experienced mapper's insight Drecks. I will read the info posted and I'm sure it will help me with this project and future ones. Balanced game play is a must. I completely agree with everything Mike had said. That is really the only thing that will turn me off completely to a map is if it really is unbalanced. Losing because of an inexperienced team or player in a key role is just normal and hopefully they learned something by it. And that is what makes playing games fun is learning how to win. I think I will play a little with the lighting in this map. Only because I haven't played with it much. Don't worry, next version isn't going to be night time or evening. I just haven't "tweaked" alot of things yet and look forward to playing with it. I did rush a little to get this map out because I felt the spawn killing was turning people off to beta 3. Now that 4 is out I feel I have time to start really getting into tweaking things. I have found out yesterday that you can sit your tank on like 2 hills and lob shots at germans. I have also found out that tanks sitting on top of big hills is very dangerous and you are putting yourself "in harm's way." I figure if you study the map enough you could probably do the same with the allies. I don't think someone could just sit there for very long so it is a minor flaw and will be fixed next version. In the meantime, I will see you guys out there when I am on a break from beta 5 or from my girlfriend.

[Drecks]

Another advice is not to pump out beta's to soon after each other.
Let people play it and gather more info yourself by playing it on
different servers.

Don't expect much people to post suggesttions and feedback.
At least that's what i noticed.

[Mike Nomad]

Take all the time necessary for Beta5 and then take some more time for review of it before we get to test it. When you are confident of Beta5, then and only then, give it to us to run another marathon with it.

By now, I'm certain you have realized you have a winner on your hands. Now its time to ensure its an epic winner. Truth, is everyone that's come in the server and played the map - - - likes it. Now, the trick is to make sure the final keeps them coming back for more.

So please, take plenty of time for Beta5 you have quite a tick list to complete as it is. I know I, along with all our regulars, look forward to hours and hours of sheer enjoyment in the map. Thank you for asking for help and then listening to our litany of findings. Your cooperation and sincere responsiveness is more than appreciated. Hopefully, the example you are setting is noticed and imitated by all mappers, current and future.

[Mike Nomad]

Just in case I forgot.... please, let me say..... thank you for supporting RO. :wink1:

[Reservoir Dog]

That is good advice. I was a little rushed on 4 and I can see that I overlooked a few things. I do learn from my mistakes. I will be taking my time to get 5 tweaked as much as I can. Hopefully it will be the final version after play testing it for a few months. This is my first map experience and boy have I learned alot. Trial and error, though is the most difficult, is also the lessons we never forget. RO is a great game with a great concept behind it. Its shared by the most harden enthusiasts to the beginning players (and mappers) from an international community. I'm glad this is the game for my first map with a good community behind it. :d

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;
Playing on the "FARM" today (on a full server as well) here at RGN and as usual had a blast (your map sure draws a crowd). I know you posted that one of the things you were looking at was the mountains so snipers can't get up there. Were you referring to the mountains behind the Russian spawn area? If so read no further, if not a German sniper can get on top of the mountain directly behind the Russian Spawn area and spawn rape the Russians like mad.

I don't know how he got up there but he was right in the middle directly on top of the highest mountain in the rear of the Russian spawn. He was murdering us!!! Unfortunately, Mike was not there this afternoon to kick him. You may already be working on a way to block that route, but just in case I wanted to make you aware! Really fun map guy for us TrackHeads! :wink1:

[Mike Nomad]

Yep...

Real life took precedence, I had a houseful of company. :)

[TruSlaughter]

Yep...

Real life took precedence, I had a houseful of company. :) damn, me too first weekend i've missed in a while

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;
Are you still trying to link your map to an actual battle from WWII on the Eastern Front? If so you may want to look at the Carpathian Operation, more specifically the Battle of Dukla Pass.

This was an operation in Slovakia between September 8, 1944 thru October 30, 1944. Dukla Pass was aproximately 15 to 20 kilometers wide by 15 to 20 kilometers deep. German General Heinrici was appointed CinC of Army Group Heinrici and commanded the 1st Panzer Army and the Hungarian 1st Army during the Battle. German Armoured units involved included the 1st, 8th & 24th Panzer Divisions. General Moskalenko commanded the 38th Soviet Army as well as the 1st Czech Army during the battle. Russian/Czech Armour included 1st Tank Division, 4th Guards Tank Corps, 14th & 242nd Guards Tank Brigade, and 25th & 31st Tank Corps. As well as far to numerous to mention here infantry and support units.

There was a large tank battle on October 25 thru October 27 which took place in the "Valley of Death" just outside of the Dukla Pass that became a miniature reenactment of the Great Tank Battle KURSK. Although this particular battle pitted T-34's vs. Panzer IV's there were numerous German and Soviet armoured units engaged during the entire 2 month conflict so it should not be hard to link the armor on your map to this battle with a little research. For a short battle it was very costly. 138,000 casualties on both sides with over 46,000 German, Soviet, Czech troops killed in 50 days in the Dukla Pass alone!

The battlefield area involved high mountains, rolling hills, valleys, villages with Churches, streams, small rivers, bridges, forests and trees, and rolling farm land. Prepared positions included reinforced bunkers, artillery, mortars, and rockets positions, minefields, etc... (sound familiar?) This was a large battlefield so again should not be to hard to find an area that closely resembles your map.

Here is a link if you are interested. Be happy to do some research for you if you think it is warranted. CLICK HERE (http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/military__carpatho.htm)

[Reservoir Dog]

One Shot, I would very much appreciate any historical insight you can bring to the table. This is one area that I am weak at and really don't have alot of time to research. I am not apprehensive to changing the tanks (as long as its balanced), roles (slightly), landscape, props, even the map name to make it "historical." I have done alot of work on beta 5 already so instead of a huge battle if you could find a "skirmish" on or near a farm that would be ideal. It sounds like there must have been some battles fought on farmland during that time. I will give you credit however I can. I already have a credits page with Drecks, Mike, and a few others that have given some good feedback and suggestions.


Thanks for the feedback on beta 4 everyone. I hate to say this but I get a huge laugh when I see people exploiting my map (in the sense that I think to myself "why didn't I think of that"). I have seen tanks roll up about half way up the mountains, hide in crevasses and keep killing off the other team. I have seen snipers (on both sides) running around the mountain shooting the enemy in their spawn. I have seen tanks going backwards into the river and sit at the bottom of the river, facing up, shooting players on shore with their MGs. I have seen people sitting in their tanks waiting for a German to run into the church and shoot them through the "clip wall". Wow, there are alot of people who are dedicated to finding weaknesses in a map and jump on them. I know this is normal when your map is played on the INTERNET. These people had a "grand ole time" with beta 4. I will admit that beta 4 has alot of exploits but I have learned my lessons.

Beta 5 will be a total rebuild. The mountains will higher with shear walls, no gradual slopes to climb. Mine fields will extend into the mountain range so no one can "skim" the mountain range and bypass the minefield. The river will destroy a tank or player if they swim to low (customized minefield). The church has been completely built from scratch. I used a "prefab" before that had bsp holes. Secondary objectives will be the barn and a new farmhouse. These places will hold an extra radio and panzerfausts but will be vulnerable to arty strikes, because there are wooden (all other structures are made of stone or concrete). Plane is gone due to map performance and repetitive sound. The church bell will only ring a couple of times if shot. Lighting tweaks will eliminate dark shadows from buildings. There are alot more improvements: new slope at German spawn, 5 arty strikes per team (that work), new catwalk in the ammo depot, balanced IS2s with T34s, alot more tank spawns, reworked terrain with more trees and evening out some of the hills and "rough" spots, and bot support. Beta 5 will also be alot more optimized for better frames per second.

Mike has already volunteered to alpha test this version on a server. I assume it will be password protected. If you are interested please contact Mike. The map will take at least 3 or 4 more weeks. I am still tweaking terrain and still have to add bot support. I want to do alot of testing with bots before the alpha test. Please keep the feedback coming so if there is something I missed we can address it. Thanks guys.

[OneShot]

Thanks for the feedback. I hate to say this but I get a huge laugh when I see people exploiting my map (in the sense that I think to myself "why didn't I think of that").

Mike has already volunteered to alpha test this version on a server. I assume it will be password protected. If you are interested please contact Mike. The map will take at least 3 more weeks. I am still tweaking terrain and still have to add bot support. I want to do alot of testing with bots before the alpha test. Please keep the feedback coming so if there is something I missed we can address it. Thanks guys.

Reservoir Dog

You're welcome and my pleasure! I would definitely be interested in doing some alpha testing on the FARM. I will be glad to pass along any feed back I can to you. One good thing about those guys that look for any exploits they can discover in a new map, it allows you, the mapper, to eliminate them before your final version is released! Did you happen see my previous post, are you looking for some historical background for your map? Thought I remembered you asking a while back, not sure though? If so the link above may or may not be useful to you Guy. Looking forward to Beta 5!

[Reservoir Dog]

I was editing my message while you posted your reply. I am very interested and modified my post. Please check out my edited, previous post. Thanks.

[OneShot]

I was editing my message while you posted your reply. I am very interested and modified my post. Please check out my edited, previous post. Thanks.

RD
Been doing the same! I think this battle has your map written all over it! Not looking for credit my friend, I enjoy history. Start working on it, sure I can find a village with a similar "FARM" to your map during this engagement. Don't think you will have to change a thing! Give me a little time!

[OneShot]

One Shot, I would very much appreciate any historical insight you can bring to the table. This is one area that I am weak at and really don't have alot of time to research. I am not apprehensive to changing the tanks (as long as its balanced), roles (slightly), landscape, props, even the map name to make it "historical." I have done alot of work on beta 5 already so instead of a huge battle if you could find a "skirmish" on or near a farm that would be ideal. It sounds like there must have been some battles fought on farmland during that time. I will give you credit however I can. I already have a credits page with Drecks, Mike, and a few others that have given some good feedback and suggestions.

Reservoir Dog

RD;
The armor loadout on your map should be just fine the way it is. The 1st Panzer Division late in 1943 had been refitted with over 100 new Panthers and a Battalion of new Tigers. While during the time leading up to fall 1944 this German Armored Division was like a fire brigade, rushing all over the front stemming the Russian onslaught where ever needed (Battle of Kiev Salient, Zhitomir. )

However, after Kursk by the time it arrived at the battlefield in Czechoslovakia it was down to only 25% of it's "Heavies," there would still have been both Tigers and Panthers on the FARM as well as the Mk IV's & Mk III's! Russian Armour should be OK as well. Plenty of T-34/85's, KV-1s as well as KV-II's but want to research the Soviet Armor make up to verify the numbers of ISs present, but feel comfortable they were there as well in quantity.

Dukla Pass was a big battle for German's use of both the Panzerfaust as well as the Panzershreck. I have not played the map as a German very often (once I think), I know you have the Panzerfaust available, you may want to look at scattering a few more of them around as this was a battle noted for their effective use by the Germans (of course not at the risk of unbalancing play). Think I have a couple "leads" for an actual farm, let you know as time goes by.

Also the combatants cut down numerous trees and piled them up as roadblocks to stop advancing/retreating armor. If you feel so inclined you could use these to block some of the routes that the tankers have been using to exploit you map, as well as minefields (Russian farmers are still finding mines today in this area!) Just wanted to let you know to keep doing what you are doing, should not require any major changes to get some historical accuracy for your map!

[ExoCet]

I was going to do the Dukla Pass map, but got tied up with DarkestHour.
If you want any info on it I have refrence pictures and some info you could have.

[Mike Nomad]

Yes, the test server would be passworded if necessary.... perhaps for the first few test runs of the map then, if all was well, the password could be removed.


A comment about roadblocks using cut trees or ANY roadblocks for that matter: -> BAD IDEA.

Consider that unless the plan is to provide sappers to blow the damn things out of the way. Which would mean planning on MORE infantry and Satchel Charges. That also means having the BOTS trained to do the same if the map is to be playable in a server that's lightly populated.

Just look at the PIA Gorlitz is if there are not enough players in the map to both destroy the blockades, infantry to protect the Tanks and of course, more to man the Tanks.

Destroyable blockades are neat and very cool but can "blockade" more than just a roadway in a map. Think twice about that one.

[OneShot]

Thanks for the feedback on beta 4 everyone. I hate to say this but I get a huge laugh when I see people exploiting my map (in the sense that I think to myself "why didn't I think of that"). I have seen tanks roll up about half way up the mountains, hide in crevasses and keep killing off the other team.

Reservoir Dog


RD;
I would agree with Mike, not wanting "destroyable" road blocks such as in GORLIZ just a suggestion to block exploits like you mentioned in your quote. Strictly on the flanks to keep play within your set boundaries. May be easier to create these from cut trees than to have to redesign the entire mountain? This is your call of course, you are the expert when it comes to creating maps! From my initial research I have found that the "fall" weather in Czechoslovakia during 1944 was far from ideal. There were periods of sunshine (but far more "nasty" days than "bright") so no big deal to leave your maps weather background the way it is now. However, having said that would it be difficult to or do you feel it would be anyoing to players to add a light rain to your map? Just throwing ideas out there RD.

[OneShot]

I was going to do the Dukla Pass map, but got tied up with DarkestHour.
If you want any info on it I have refrence pictures and some info you could have.

ExoCet;

Absolutely, all info would be GREATLY appreciated. I do not think RD is attempting to recreate the entire Battle, just trying to find an engagement between the Germans and Soviet/Czechs which occurred during the time frame that will add historical accuracy and perspective to his map-in-progress. I initially though about adapting his map to the battle which was fought in the "Valley of Death." But this particular engagement only involved from an armour standpoint T-34 vs. Mk IV's. Not really what RD's map is about. I'm looking/researching a short although sharp combined arms battle which occurred in or on a farm in the Dukla Pass between elements of the 1st Panzer and Soviet Armoured Forces. Not a lot of info on this battle, as you probably know, but gonna keep looking because I think RD's map is so much fun! Thanks again for your offer of help

[Reservoir Dog]

I am flexible on many aspects of the map. To change the "background" or the sunny day would just require changing the "skybox" picture to a more cloudy day and lowering the sunlight a little and some reflections on the water. Not a huge project. With the optimizations I have done I could add a little rain and see if the map runs ok. It might help the infantry a little when they are on foot. Changing the tank line up is not a big deal. If history for this period required more PIVs and less Panthers then thats fine. I would like to see a mix of tanks from powerful and slow to lighter and fast. Having the map balanced is the only thing I would insist on. "Sturgisov" is, of course, a fictitious name and would need to be changed. Since this is a fight for control of a small territory and not an epic battle, the name is very flexible as One Shot pointed out. It could be named for a farm outside of a major city battle.

The mountains have already been taken care of. I have to go and tweak the tops so they are rounded and not sharp points. I also have to walk around the entire map on foot and tank and make sure I didn't miss anything (better put on my hiking boots). If they have to be more hills than mountains I can take care of that too by retexturing them and make adjustments.

I kinda like the tree roadblock idea for a few reasons. First, it is historically accurate for that period. Its unique, I haven't seen tree roadblocks in other maps. It also justifies the tank crewmen having satchels instead of just blowing up tanks. I don't think I will need to add any more classes since there are usually alot of tank crewmen. It allows the snipers to kill them while they are clearing and outside of their tanks. It also allows someone inside the tank to cover the other guy that is clearing. There doesn't need to be alot of roadblocks but just a few on the straight roads but can be easily bypassed by players and bots through the hilly areas. Take for example the road from the church to the bunker. It could have a roadblock halfway between the trees. It could be bypassed by flanking to the hilly area outside or by flanking into the tree'd area in the center. The hilly area will cut the point of view down and the tree area will have more of a chance to run into infantry with a satchel. I initially like this idea and think its possible to work it in without limiting the map, but will keep in mind of Mike's concerns. Of course the alpha testing will tell us.

Exocat, any info is greatly appreciated. I will let One Shot do the history on this since it seems to be his forte. Any pictures (tree roadblocks?), links, info would help us. Any suggestions to beta 4 map is also appreciated.

I would like to think that the alpha testing would go very smooth and release it shortly after. But I think there would probably be a number of suggestions that we will have to check out and incorporate if possible. I can see a few different alpha maps being tested to get to the next beta. Each alpha will have a version name (A1 or Alpha1) and should be only accessed by alphatesters (password protected). Since there will be a few changes to the map to make it "historical," I wouldn't want the community to see it until the beta is released. I want the next marathon on the RGN servers to be something special for the RO community and something we can all be proud of.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

A1, A2 etc., will be fine. The shorter the map name.... the better! hahahahahha

[OneShot]

During the marathon weekend I heard you guys discussing the few remaining "floating" trees. I noticed one this past weekend playing as a Russian. If you cross the road on the right shortly after leaving the Russian spawn area there is a cluster of three trees together, and the one on the far right was floating. Just thought I would mention it in case you were not aware of it, but seeing how much play the map got you are probably well aware already.

RD a name change will definitely be in order. I will provide units identifications, commanders (German as well as Soviet) as well as a brief description of the skirmish/engagement so you can update the beginning of the map when a player choose his/her side/role. Right now all indications are the German Armour should be from the 1st Panzer Division, 1st Panzer Brigade, 4th Panzer Regiment (this unit had suffered heavily during the proceeding months {down to 25% strength} but still had a good compliment of Panthers with hopefully some Tigers and plenty of Mk IV's & III's.) I believe you already limit the number of Tigers that respawn so should not be a historical problem. The infantry will need be from the same 1st Panzer Division, 113th Panzer Grenadier Regiment.

The area that looks most promising seems to be the foothills of the Carpathians near the entrance to Dukla Pass, September 1944. Elements of 1st Panzer Divisions 'heavies" were pulled out relatively early in the battle so we will need to go with the earlier time frame (September vs October.) Narrowing down the villages now but an area near Sanok appears to may be what you need. This could change!!! Sambor may be a better location. Either way you could still call your map what you choose, Dukla Pass, Sanok Farm, Sambor Farm, or I may still be able to come up with the name of one of the owners of the farms where the battle played out, don't know if you could legally use it with out the heirs approval? Strictly be your call RD. Name it what you like would be my opinion but I agree with Mike, keep it short if possible! Working on the specific Russian units engaged there which is the most challenging and I still have to verify the area and exact farming location where this type of clash (your map) occured. I will let you know about the weather conditions at the time, glad it will not be to much of a pain at this stage.

I have some pictures of the roadblocks in my personal library, as well as areas where they also felled trees across roads when they became impassable (type of bridge as you will.) These roadblocks were no engineering works of art RD. They used explosives, hand tools, conscript labour or any equipment on had to pile up these logs across roads/passes in no certain manner. Looking for some .jpgs of this around the Internet, if I can't find them I will scan them in and upload them here so you can see them. They don't call this the "Unknown War" here in the West for no reason. I ordered several books from my local college library from another campus which should be here in a day or two. If you see no posts until then you'll know I am still "researching" but it is coming along, although slowly at times, so bear with me and we will get it done.

[OneShot]

RD;

Found a good source and some info on the Soviets participation during the Battle of Dukla Pass. The German 1st Panzer Division was transferred from the area near the town of Kielce and reached the area just south of the town of Jaslo on September 10, 1944 when it attacked units of Soviet 52nd Rifle Corps of the 38th Army. Alongside with German 8th Panzer Division it attacked the left flank of Soviet 38th Army from September 10 thru 18 and fought against units of Soviet 52nd Rifle Corps, 25th Tank Corps, 1st Czechoslovak Army Corps, 1st Guard Cavalry Corps, 101st Rifle Corps and 4th Guard Tank Corps. Need some additional research to find a specific farming area during this time frame (7 days) and just which elements of the Allied Force had employed T-34/85's, KV-1's, and the IS-2's. Looking hard at the 4th Guard Tank Corp and 25th Tank Corp armour make up. Also working on verifying weather conditions during this time in the area. I have a wealth of info on the 1st and 8th Panzer Division but getting specifics on the Soviet/Czech units is proving a little harder. But I will keep working on it for you R. Dog!

[Reservoir Dog]

You are gathering some good info. I have been doing work on weather and lighting adjustments with the map. Adding rain itself does tend to slow the frames per second down on a larger map. I guess thats the reason you see rain and snow more on smaller infantry maps as opposed to large tank maps. But I have done the next best thing. Since there is little chance that any battle during that period was fought on a sunny clear day, I wanted a bad weather day without it looking "gloomy" and not changing the level of detail in the map. Just playing around I added the skybox from Baskan Valley and modified it a little to include a light for sun breaking through over a horizon effect. I turned down the sunlight actors a little and added just a hint of blue to the color. I also had wind ambient sound actors throughout the map that I turned up a little but not overbearing. Distance fog was increased slightly. This has produced a really nice effect of a calm period right before a big storm plus the dark clouds are animated and roll over the entire landscape. You can almost smell the rain in the air...lol. I have included screens so everyone let me know what you think.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/3053/farm6ze1.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm6ze1.jpg)
Horizon shot looking at the bridge, old mountain texture

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1162/farm5gy8.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm5gy8.jpg)
Horizon shot from ammo depot

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3533/farm4wd3.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm4wd3.jpg)
Shot from inside depot. Added catwalk, new lighting effects, and depot has thicker, more realistic walls.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3998/farm3rt4.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm3rt4.jpg)
New mountain texture. The white rock looked weird with the blue tint from the sunlight.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7302/farm2ww6.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm2ww6.jpg)
The farmhouse objective. Still have to play with lighting and the fence.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1686/farm1ck6.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm1ck6.jpg)
Distance shot of new mountains.

If the tree road blocks don't work, we can have just some static meshes that show some road blocks that have been cleared, blown-up, or moved to the side. This will at least add some historical "props", level detail, and maybe some cover for infantry. Not sure how the bots would react to a road block. I could put some AI scripts to tell them to use a satchel if they run into this condiction but the bots are a little stupid and unpredictable, and not sure if they would even get out of there tanks.


Reservoir Dog

[ExoCet]

Ok here is an Excellent site on Dukla Pass. Good reports and some decent reference pictures.
From those screenshots it is not far off looking like the area concerned.

http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/Military_dukla_pass.htm

there is also this one which is not quite as good.

http://www.dynamiclink.com/dukla/valley_of_death.htm

[Drecks]

You should take a good 2th look into that depot shot

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3533/farm4wd3.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm4wd3.jpg)

Try to play with the textures. At this moment the ceiling,floor and wall all have the same textures which makes it look very blunt. There is no contrast.

When you give the floor another concrete or tiled texture and meanwhile give the the ceiling another texture it will look more realistic.

Then you need to scale the textures. You can do this by open up the texture properties. Scale them smaller.

The doorway could use these static mesh door beams. Add them and scale them into the gap. Now it looks like a hole in the concrete.

Check this pic of my son standing in a WW2 Bunker doorway.

http://www.easygamer.nl/datas/users/1-aw3.jpg

Meanwhile you could keep in mind the size of the green covered crates stored inside. The size they are now even German secret technology could net get them through the smaller doorway.

Greetz Drecks

[Reservoir Dog]

A keen eye as usual Drecks. I need to research more pics and play with some of the texturing more. With One Shot narrowing down the history side, I can focus on narrowing down my search for architecture pics. Thanks for the pic of the bunker. Your suggestions would add depth and scope. I was thinking the mesh with the green cover was 4 boxes stacked together but I might be wrong. Making the loading doors bigger might give it more of a "warehouse" look anyway. Thanks for suggestions.

Thanks for the links both Execet and One Shot. I am getting more time to read some of the history from these and with the posts from os I am getting even more excited. If there are any more ideas for historical props that you would compliment the map with the time period please let me know.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Please find plenty of bunker designs and other excellent WW2 reference material here (http://forums.raidersmerciless.com/showthread.php?t=563). Also reveiw the rest of this area in our forum.. therein you will find some excellent photographic essays of vintage WW2 equipment etc..

The big guy with the short hair is a real "ham".... but its ok, he came along with the nice kid. :d

[OneShot]

Ok here is an Excellent site on Dukla Pass. Good reports and some decent reference pictures.
From those screenshots it is not far off looking like the area concerned.

http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/Military_dukla_pass.htm

there is also this one which is not quite as good.

http://www.dynamiclink.com/dukla/valley_of_death.htm

Thanks ExoCet; Some of the first sites I visited. There is a link to "Friends of Dukla Pass" web site for a guy that lives here in Florida. I contacted him and he put me in touch with a guy that lives in Czechoslovakia that is Big Military Buff and knows a tremendous amount of the area and specifically the Battle of Dukla Pass. Isn't the Internet awesome. I am emailing back and for with a guy a continent away whom I have never even talked to or knew and we are now like old friends sharing info and a passion for Military History! I am now verifying his info with battle records of the units involved, but it looks quite accurate so far RD, very accurate! :wink1:

[OneShot]

You are gathering some good info. I have been doing work on weather and lighting adjustments with the map. Adding rain itself does tend to slow the frames per second down on a larger map. I guess thats the reason you see rain and snow more on smaller infantry maps as opposed to large tank maps. But I have done the next best thing. Since there is little chance that any battle during that period was fought on a sunny clear day, I wanted a bad weather day without it looking "gloomy" and not changing the level of detail in the map. Just playing around I added the skybox from Baskan Valley and modified it a little to include a light for sun breaking through over a horizon effect. I turned down the sunlight actors a little and added just a hint of blue to the color. I also had wind ambient sound actors throughout the map that I turned up a little but not overbearing. Distance fog was increased slightly. This has produced a really nice effect of a calm period right before a big storm plus the dark clouds are animated and roll over the entire landscape. You can almost smell the rain in the air...lol. I have included screens so everyone let me know what you think.

If the tree road blocks don't work, we can have just some static meshes that show some road blocks that have been cleared, blown-up, or moved to the side. This will at least add some historical "props", level detail, and maybe some cover for infantry. Not sure how the bots would react to a road block. I could put some AI scripts to tell them to use a satchel if they run into this condition but the bots are a little stupid and unpredictable, and not sure if they would even get out of there tanks.


Reservoir Dog

RD;

Weather Screenies looks great!!! I can smell the rain also!! Especially without having to sacrifice fps or game play!!! Good job! I think it adds to the overall true "historical" feeling and appeal of the map, considering some of the ponding of water you have in some of the areas and really makes and enhances the effect "The CARPATHIAN Mountains" surrounding THE DUKLA PASS have and seem more realistic IMO. Remembering the Dukla Pass Battlefield was 20 x 20 kilometers deep and wide and raged for 50 days between three Panzer Division, and an entire Red Army plus numerous other Soviet/Czech Forces, and which included high mountains and valleys, farms and forests, stream and rivers, bridges and villages, your maps looks like you had this battle specifically in mind when you created it RD. Gonna be a real nice "fit."

The bot problem seems problematic with most RO combined arms or armor maps with exception of a few. Also I have yet to see a smart sapper or engineer bot on any map!!!! While I also enjoy game play more than historical accuracy, for the majority off the RO community IMO this is a "must" to get you the acclaim and recognition of the other top mappers, developers, and most importantly playing community which clearly for your map you deserve. I guess bottom line here is this is a game which is based on actual historical, little know battles on the Eastern Front Of WWII which is its attempt to bring recognition to the millions whom sacrificed during those four bloody hard fought years that many of us here in the West know little. I think you will achieve both of these two key requirements. First we all know your map is fun from playing it, now it is also gonna be based on history! Home Run in my book RD!!!

Everyone has heard of the "Bulge","Falaise Pocket" , "Bridge at Remagen", or even "Dunkirk" ,"Dieppe" or "Tobruk" but until starting my research I for one had never heard Of Battle of Dukla Pass which was every bit as significant as most major engagements in the Western Front. Get you some pictures uploaded here soon to give you a little more feel, but your map is fitting so well into this scenario if I were you I would just keep working on fine tuning what you got and adding small historical items to the background if not to much work at this stage RD!!

[Mike Nomad]

One of the main reasons The Battle of Dukla Pass is seemingly obscured in the annals of WW2 history is, more than likely, due to the skulduggery involved on behalf of "Uncle Joe"... the more I dig into the BIG Picture of the history of the Eastern Front and why things went the way they did, the more I find that the leadership in the Kremlin were far more vicious and inhumane than anyone ever imagined. Yes, worse than Hitler in every way imaginable.

The Battle of Dukla, Carpathian-Dukla Campaign — World War II Soviet military campaign against the German Army and its allies for control of the Dukla/Duklia Pass connecting Poland and Slovakia, lasting from September 8 to the end of October 1944. The campaign was led by Soviet forces of the First Ukrainian Front, including the 38th Army under General Kirill S. Moskalenko and the *Czechoslovak Army Corps under Brigadier General Ludvik Svoboda. The official goal of the Soviet campaign was to take control of the Dukla Pass and then to link up with troops in revolt within the Slovak Army and with partisans in eastern Slovakia.

Originally planned to last only a week, the battle for the Dukla Pass took a month and resulted in great loss of life. The Soviet Army alone lost 95,000 dead or wounded; German casualties were estimated at some 52,000. The Czechoslovak Army Corps incurred 1,844 dead and 4,700 wounded, a high percentage of whom were Russians from Sub-Carpathian Russia. The Dukla Battle caused numerous casualties among the Lemko/Russian civilian population living on both slopes of the Carpathians. Several of their villages were totally destroyed or severely damaged, a situation which prompted many surviving Lemkos to opt for emigration to the Soviet Union.

The campaign also had a secret political aspect. Dragging out the military operations reduced the possibility of any effective assistance to the Slovak Army revolt (Slovak National Uprising) with the result that its participants were thereby doomed to isolation, decimation and defeat. The Soviet Army had a few weeks earlier reacted in the same way to the Warsaw Uprising of August 1944. Quite simply put, Stalin did not want either the Polish or Slovak uprisings to be successful.

The Russian soldiers in the Czechoslovak Army Corps were not permitted to participate in the liberation of their Sub-Carpathian homeland. As early as summer of 1944, the Czechoslovak Corps was on the threshhold of the eastern Carpathian passes, yet despite the request of the corps commander to include his forces with Soviet troops crossing into Sub-Carpathian territory (the 18th Army), they were instead sent to southern Poland to participate in the Dukla Campaign, where most were killed. The Soviet security service (NKVD), in particular L.I. Meklis, who had already arranged for the "re-unification of Transcarpathia with Mother Ukraine," could not allow Russian troops, who had previously experienced Soviet reality in the prison camps of the Gulag (1939-1942), to return to their homeland. Thus, they were dispatched and destined to be laid to rest in the fields of the now infamous Dukla "human meat-grinder."

...All part of the grand Kremlin scheme to lay to waste then, occupy and dominate Europe. They damn near succeeded! Again, had the Japanese backed their ally Germany by attacking Russia in Manchuria, at the same time as Operation Barbarossa was begun, I believe the outcome may have very well been quite different on the Eastern Front.

After having discovered the Russian Government had the GALL to rename WW2 to "The Great Patriotic War".... thus dismissing the sacrifices made by all the world's nations, particularly in lives and foremost, the USA and the UK when the western front was opened with the invasion of France. I began to dig deeper.

The fact of the USA having provided the bulk of foodstuffs, munitions, vehicles, aircraft and basic supplies and equipment for the Russian troops via the lend/lease act had been egregiously dismissed by the Kremlin immediately following the German Surrender is despicable. Because of these occurrences, I've been convinced of the ongoing Kremlin treachery that seemingly, to this day has yet to end..

Every other Nation afforded the benefits of the Lend/Lease Act have repaid the USA, all that is, except Russia.

[Reservoir Dog]

Wow. Some incredible history that I have never heard of before. Where do you get most of your information Mike? The internet or history books? I would be interested in reading more but you did cover the subject very well. I have learned so much from just these forums. You guys are a wealth of information. Was wondering if in the future you guys want to team up for a full scale version of THE DUKLA PASS? There is already a wealth of information right here. If you guys want to do the historical side (map of terrain, objectives, tanks and infantry used, buildings, etc) I can try to put it together.

Thats cool One Shot. I think that's the true power of the internet. Bringing people with common interests together whether its history, gaming, or forums like this. The technology age is a good time to live in.

Ok, I have worked in some of Drecks suggestions and I like the results. Oh, by the way, I love the shots from your vacation. That was awsome to share with the community and probably made a few of us, like me, envious.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5053/farm8vi7.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm8vi7.jpg)
The entry frames gives it a different look but I like it. Its the little historical details that can add alot to maps, and that's why I'm sure that your maps are so popular Drecks.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5536/farm15up6.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm15up6.jpg)
Different angle and further away.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5725/farm10sm9.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm10sm9.jpg)
I have added the texture from the frames to the observation windows inside. They are small so a sniper doesn't have a full range of the landscape but they are elevated and commander can use to set artillery strikes. This is to balance the silos that the allies can climb and snipe from.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5956/farm9na0.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm9na0.jpg)
The textures for the floor and ceiling are the same but I have scaled them different. It does add depth and gives the depot a real "lived in" look I think.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7771/farm16rr7.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm16rr7.jpg)
There are ramps for the tanks to roll up on. These sides I textured with the frame tex. I think it looks good.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/1967/farm7eq6.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm7eq6.jpg)
Drecks made a suggestion before about the church courtyard and wall. The stone wall now is not linear or repetitive and is broken up in more areas. The courtyard area has church bricks, bushes, a porch, and a broken wagon (in the back). This does look more realistic and adds character. I also moved the graves around so they aren't so linear either.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2350/farm14qs6.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm14qs6.jpg)
Another angle.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4940/farm13sq2.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm13sq2.jpg)
Added some more props to the farmhouse. Still have to move fence around a little so its not as linear. I still have to play with lighting on a number of areas.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/25/farm12fb0.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm12fb0.jpg)
This is what I am in need of some suggestions, the mortar position. I have added some more props but I'm just not happy with it. Should it be a flak gun position? Should it have a concrete wall around it? Should it be changed to a more historical objective? It just seems empty and hard to defend even with the river and a bridge. For some reason I think it should be something else but I'm not sure what. Should the hills be on either side?

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9992/farm11ay3.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farm11ay3.jpg)
After reviewing some pictures of german bunkers, I noticed that a number of them were made of stone and brick. Smaller ones blended with the landscape and some where built half-way into the ground. The bigger ones inside cities or at real critical areas had the big concrete look. I changed the texture to a brown, earth-tone bricks and the roof will be a grey-painted concrete look. Right now its that grey wood tex but I will make one for the grey painted concrete if I can't find it. The floor has a dark wood look. I am going to change some walls around and am thinking of adding a big explosion hole, maybe half of one side. This would explain why its the "abandoned bunker."

I will be adding satchel spawns to the map. The tank crewman will not have them. This will lower the number of satchels and less satchel spamming. Also the snipers, commanders, and MGers will have a chance to pick one up. There will be a few at either spawn, secondary objectives (farmhouse and barn) and first objectives (depot and church). This also eliminates the possiblity of road-blocks but I will make a static mesh for them to be off to the side of roads for cover and map detail.

I'll be out of town for a few days so I won't be posting or mapping until late Tuesday. Let me know what you think of everything so far. I know the lighting is off in a few places but when I get all of the details and textures I want then I will tune it.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

So far, I like what I see. As for the mortar position, I'd suggest a defense complex of both Flak 88's and mortars surrounded by both a wall and sandbag combination. Picture a military outpost, a few walled-in bunkers for living and a messhall and ammo storage plus of course, the large weapons etc.. surrounded by protection, walls and sandbags, from ground assault.

[Drecks]

RD;


Everyone has heard of the "Bulge","Falaise Pocket" , "Bridge at Remagen", or even "Dunkirk" ,"Dieppe" or "Tobruk" but until starting my research I for one had never heard Of Battle of Dukla Pass

There are so many battles we have never heard of.
Some small some big but all had their own dramatic
story to tell.

[OneShot]

So far, I like what I see. As for the mortar position, I'd suggest a defense complex of both Flak 88's and mortars surrounded by both a wall and sandbag combination. Picture a military outpost, a few walled-in bunkers for living and a messhall and ammo storage plus of course, the large weapons etc.. surrounded by protection, walls and sandbags, from ground assault.

Also RD in this particular battlefield many of the command bunkers were "earth-in" and literally either buried in the dirt or cut out of the hill sides, which would be ideal to place an entrance into the hill in the mortar position. I'll post some pics, enjoy your time away! OneShot

[OneShot]

So far, I like what I see. As for the mortar position, I'd suggest a defense complex of both Flak 88's and mortars surrounded by both a wall and sandbag combination. Picture a military outpost, a few walled-in bunkers for living and a messhall and ammo storage plus of course, the large weapons etc.. surrounded by protection, walls and sandbags, from ground assault.


Also RD in this battlefield much of the command bunkers were "earthen" and literally either buried in the dirt or cut out of the hill sides, which would be ideal to put an entrance into the hill in the mortar position. I'll post some pics, enjoy your time away!

[OneShot]

Wow. Some incredible history that I have never heard of before. Where do you get most of your information Mike? The Internet or history books? I would be interested in reading more but you did cover the subject very well. I have learned so much from just these forums. You guys are a wealth of information. Was wondering if in the future you guys want to team up for a full scale version of THE DUKLA PASS? There is already a wealth of information right here. If you guys want to do the historical side (map of terrain, objectives, tanks and infantry used, buildings, etc) I can try to put it together.

Reservoir Dog

RD;
Speaking only for myself you can count on me for any historical research you need on any projects you wish to undertake. You have some real talent for mapping Guy! So if by doing a little research allows you to concentrate on the technical aspects of your mapping be more than happy to do it. Anything I can do to encourage you, we (entire RO gaming community) will benefit. :) You have already created a lot of ground work for this part of the Dukla Pass battle, so I think it would only be appropriate for you to do the large scale version of the Battle of Dukla Pass. Or possibly you could do the armor only map for the Valley of Death, the two day tank battle that has been compared to (only on a much smaller scale) to the Great Tank Battle "KURSK" that occurred during the end game of the Dukla Pass battle.

Research for me is normally like this RD. I joined the Military Book Club when I was a kid so I have so many, many history books lying around. Unfortunately, it takes me forever to remember where I have stashed them. :confused: I have books in three large bookcase in my study, books in boxes in my closets, and so many books in our attic I have a hard time finding my reference material anymore. :whaa1: I then look to the Internet for additional information/cross references. And finally I still have my library card to the University I attended here so I can get books sent from all over the southern colleges to my campus in days.

Like I said previously I really enjoy Military History, have since I was a boy, but as adults our priorities change with less time for reading etc..., my hobby has gotten lost in the shuffle of life. My main interests were the specific small details of engagements. I love to know what specific tank, squad fought what particular tank or squad on what day time as opposed to the "Grand Scale" of a large battle. As a result you may find my research concentrating on the little details, which may or may not be of use to you and your mapping. RD let me say this that by doing this little research for you has renewed my interest as it were in my hobby, so again thanks for the opportunity to help you. :) Although my wife does not feel the same way since I have open boxes of books scattered around the house again after she had put them away years ago, way away. :frown: Just kidding, get my little one to help me clean up! Someday!! :p

[Mike Nomad]

As I'm sure you have realized by now, I'm willing to assist in any future endeavors. Just ask. :wink1:

[OneShot]

RD;
Got some extensive refrence books p/u for me from our local library today. While the info is excellent and extremely detailed it does not now seem to be working totally into the existing map you have created. Here is what I do know and I have verified by more than one source!

I now believe there were no Tigers in the Carpathlo-Dukla Operation or any other battles in the Carpathians during this time frame!! I still have yet to identify any Soviet units equiped with T-34/85's as of yet but still looking into that possibility. The Soviet 38th Army units may or may not have, time will tell, but I still feel comfortable assuming there were in fact 85's deployed somewhere during the battle. Have found reference to some KV-85's in action there as well. The PzKpfw VI Tiger I Heavy Tanks were not assigned to the Panzer Divisions but to independent heavy tank battalions sPzAbt (schwere Panzer Abteilungen) exception being PanzerGrenadier Division GroBdeutchland and the Panzer Lehr Division. These "Heavy Units" were held at the Army or Corp level and then assigned to the Panzer Divisions as a need or operations dictated or required. May be why no record of Tiger operations listed for any of the Panzer Division engaged in the Carpathians. However, I have also checked the battle history and after action battle reports for the various heavy Tiger I battalions (11 Army (Heer)- numbered 501 thru 510 and III.Abteilung/Panzer Regiement GroBdeutschland and 3 SS - numbered 101 thru 103) but can not find corroborating evidence for their deployment in the Carpathians unfortunately.

1st PzD went into the battle with 20 PzIV, 25 PzV, 7 StuG III, 13 Marders. In the course of the fighting the division got another 20 PzV.

The 8th PzD, which arrived a little bit later, was far better equipped in September 1944 it was issued with 37 PzIV and 37 PzV, all of them factory new.

The last Panzer Division that was engaged in that area was 24th PzD, which went into action on September 23 1944 with 33 Pz IV, 8 Pz III's and 36 StuG and StuH.

The Germans also had three StuG brigades - 300, 301, and 311 - with 24, 5 and 27 StuG/StuH respectively.

The Soviets began the offensive with 86 operational tanks and SU's in their 25th Tank Corps, 12 JS-2 in 12th Heavy Tank Regiment and 10 ISU-152 in 349th Guards Heavy SP Artillery Regiment. On Sep 10, 1944 the 38th Army was reinforced by 4 Guards Tank Corps made up of 59 T-34's and 9 SU-85, as well as with 124th SP Artillery Regiment with 10 SU-76. By September 17, 1944 the 38th Army was reinforced with one more tank corps, the 31st Tank Corps. On September 18, 1944 4th Guards Tank Corp reported 45 tanks and 9 SU's in running condition, while 31th Tank Corp reported 72 tanks and 18 SU's operational. Both corps suffered heavy losses during the following 3-4 days and by September 22, 1944 they were both down to 18 and 21 tanks/SP guns respectively.

The other units were not in much better condition either! 1st Guards Cavalry Corps had very few tanks (if any) and 1st Czechoslovakian Tank Brigade was a small force outfitted with T-34/76s. I have also discovered that a considerable number of these Soviet/Czech tanks were reported as "factory-refurbished" and therefore most of them were mechanically unreliable. Most probably all were in fact T-34/76 's.

From what I have read, I feel that the tank vs. tank duels occurred very rarely. The obvious exception being the 2 day battle on October 25-27, 1944 near the Kaspiova Valley Brook area called the "Valley of Death." Overall the Germans battle strategy for Dukla Pass seemed to be to try to cut off the penetration corridors and frequently attacked the Soviet flanks with small group of tanks (5 - 12) accompanied by infantry. The Soviets used against them masses of anti-tank artillery (57 and 76 mm guns) and the Germans sustained heavy losses in process. On Sep 30, 1944 1st PzD reported 20 Panzers and StuG's still in running condition, 8th PzD only 4, while 24th PzD had 21 operational tanks total.

JS-2s, SUs and ISU-152s were employed mainly in ambush positions, because in the mountains these heavy machines demonstrated very low maneuverability. But on the other hand the Battle of Dukla Pass was credited with demonstrating for the first time that armour could be used in mass and effectively in mountainous battlefields! In the initial stages of the operation, when the Soviets still had a considerable number of tanks, the T-34s were used en mass and tried to advance in long columns through the narrow mountain passages. Not surprisingly, they became easy targets for the German AT gunners. By the end of the month, when the number of the Soviet operational tanks and SP guns was running low, they were employed to accompany the advancing infantry in supporting roles only, no longer as a vanguard!

Having discovered this info R. Dog I still believe that a scenario similar to your FARM map must have occurred during one of the stages of the battle. There is just way to much farm lands and villages in this area for a STURGISOV FARM type map battle IMO to not have happened. I would just have to keep digging! But from a historical perspective, to be 100% accurate (please I am not suggesting that you do this at all on your map RD) the "TIGERS" would more than likely not be present during this particular battle and possibly the T-34/85's as well! And if you choose this course and this became the case (no Tigers or T-34/85's) in your opinion for your map be prepared! You map is becoming extremely popular the way it is now in the RO community. The buzz is out about the FARM guy, be assured of that. Removing any vehicles at this stage of development may not be viewed in a positive light as your map is currently being viewed, especially with the German Armour "Heavy" purists that both want and expect "Tigers" on a quality RO armour centric map my friend! OneShot

[Mike Nomad]

Once again, Sturgisov Farm kept the server full all day long.... historically accurate or not... this map is POPULAR!


It fills the server and gets constant compliments. :wink1:

[OneShot]

Once again, Sturgisov Farm kept the server full all day long.... historically accurate or not... this map is POPULAR!


It fills the server and gets constant compliments. :wink1:

I agree wholeheartedly Mike. It really is a fantastic map to play in RO. I enjoyed it the first time I played it, long before I got involved with doing any research on it for RD. Historically accurate or not, I will play it for a long time to come. How can it do anything else but become more popular as the RO community gets a chance to be exposed to RD's map! I do believe with some minor tweaks (easy for me to say) and maybe some slight historical liberty, this map still could be accepted by the RO historical purists for the "Valley of Death." This was a 2 day intense combined arms / tank duel that took place on October 25 - 27, 1944 in the Kapisova Brook Valley near the villages of Kapisova, Nizna Pisama, and Dobroslava in Slovakia during the Battle of Dukla Pass. However, both sides armoured strength were vastly depleted from the previous 50 days of fighting! I honestly do not know what the minimum criteria is for RO maps to be considered historically accurate, or if it even really matters?

Unfortunately, I can find no evidence of Tigers deployed nor beginning to look if few or any T-34/85 (two of my favorite vehicles in RO by the way ) were present either (hard to find exact make up of specific Soviet Units, but I am still seeking source material, for some reason Uncle Joe was pretty closed lip about his forces {see Mike's previous post for more}) during this conflict! There were in fact many KV-85's present, the up-gunned version of the KV-1 with a new turret and 85 mm (D-5T) gun carrying 71 rounds. Although I do not know if this particular tank has been modeled in RO yet? I suspect not. But this is not the end of the world. Nature of research I suppose. More dead ends than open passages.

Everything else from R. Dog's map were in fact there, Panthers, MkIV's and MkIII's out the ying yang, Russian Heavies like the JS-2's as well as a huge amount of T-34/76's and large numbers of assault guns, SP's and infantry on both sides. The terrain also closely resembles RD's Sturgisov Farm map from what I can tell from pictures I have been able to find of the area during this period then and now! So other than the Tigers and T-34/85's (and I am not saying remove these vehicles from your FARM map) Reservoir Dog your map appears relatively accurate for the conflict "Valley of Death" Oct. 25-27, 1944 IMO, although perhaps with just a little historical artistic liberty applied for interest, fun, and balanced game play. Only providing you with the basic history of this one short but hard contested battle RD. If you want I have the "specifics" of this battle also (units, direction of march, areas of operation, vehicles, time frame). Let me know if you wish to see it. I'm afraid I may have you on info overload! Your call now RD. OneShot

[Mike Nomad]

Then, simply put .....screw the exact history BS.... why cripple a successful formula?


Add as much of the history to make the scenario as close as possible to history within reason, but then let the zealot attitude go..... make the map be the success it already has shown it can be.


Never, ever grab for failure when success is well within your reach!!

The pursuit of absolute Historical Accuracy will KILL the gameplay and Entertainment Success Factor of this map. DO NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN!

I cannot emphasize that fact enough. Do not remove the Tigers or anything else for that matter... only add to the map's assets! Do not subtract a single asset. Use artistic creativity's liberties to the max. This map is earmarked already as a classic.

[OneShot]

Then, simply put .....screw the exact history BS.... why cripple a successful formula?

Add as much of the history to make the scenario as close as possible to history within reason, but then let the zealot attitude go..... make the map be the success it already has shown it can be.

Never, ever grab for failure when success is well within your reach!!

The pursuit of absolute Historical Accuracy will KILL the gameplay and Entertainment Success Factor of this map. DO NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN!

I cannot emphasize that fact enough. Do not remove the Tigers or anything else for that matter... only add to the map's assets! Do not subtract a single asset. Use artistic creativity's liberties to the max. This map is earmarked already as a classic.


My sentiments exactly Mike!!! I'm all about fun game play for a game!!! And I agree with you 100%, this map is fun and I think also like you, destined for "classic" status in the RO community. I think the map ROCKS the way it is. I have not researched any other RO maps, stock or otherwise. But I would assume a little historical artistic liberty may be found in many maps in the interests of balanced, game play and in my book that is just fine.

All I was attempting to do is link RD's map historically to an actual battle fought on the Eastern Front. The Carpathians Campaign may not even be a logical choice for his type of map, although it sure seemed like it to me? Quite frankly there may be far better encounters between the Soviets and Germans that would match the FARM current structure (load out, terrain, scenery, weather, etc..) just the way it is now than any fought during the actual Dukla Pass Battle. I hope I was not coming across as attempting to persuade RD to change his map for pure historical accuracy. If so let me state here unequivocally my opinion clearly on this subject. I want to play a map that is fun, which this map is!!!! I don't care one bit if a particular piece of equipment /vehicle was actually there or not. I could care less honestly.

If it is not fun for me, screw it I won't play it again that is for sure! I can get history from books, RO is a game and games are supposed to be fun! Keep the map fun to play always, and success will follow. Heck with history! My apologies if I was coming across as a historical snob or worse demonstrating a sh** y "zealot attitude" towards the historical integrity of your map Reservoir Dog! Holly crap, I hate those guys!!!

If RD wants to crank out another version of the "FARM" to one that is exactly historically accurate per the Dukla Pass Battle, all he will need do is change the load out, which is what I think he may or may not be contemplating in the future. Hopefully, not his plan for this particular map or version. I assume from his posts he is merely looking for some background tweaking now? Honestly I agree with Mike, the map is a winner as is!

Sorry I think I was looking at the Farm much the same as the way I view the RO map ARAD. The latest version, ARAD SH 4 (less the Tigers and more Panthers with better scenery, terrain, etc...) IMhumbleO is the best Arad map out there today. I think it is an outstanding map! And believe me nothing gives me more pleasure than killing a Tiger, especially with a so called inferior tank such as T-34, just my thing. But I do feel Arad SH 4 is by far the best ARAD map, with or with out Tigers. The stock RO Arad is what really got me hooked and plugged into the entire RO gaming experience. As a "TRACKHEAD" this map really got my interests going for RO. Look at it's continued popularity on the servers today now more than a year after its release. You can always find a full server on one the ARAD maps, 24/7, always! I think that says something for its design, balanced/fair game play and in particular its vehicle load out. I think Sturgistov Farm, while still being a beta version, is clearly right up there and imo heads above the stock ARAD maps.

R. Dog sorry if I was coming across as trying to tell you how to design any aspect of your map, never my intention. I was just attempting to point out from the historical side, which I believed you were looking for, how the FARM would need to be to updated in its current configuration to make it a more historically accurate map per the Dukla Pass Battles. Never meant to tell you your business my friend! You got a real fun map here, my suggestion would be for you to not change a thing about the FARM. Your map is working real nice just the way you created it RD!

Besides, I would never attempt to tell someone with your abilities how to craft his map and of course it's make up and resulting game play. I certainly do not know enough about mapping to begin to attempt to offer up suggestions let alone criticisms as to creating one. I'll leave that to the experts like DRECKS!!! I admit to knowing nothing about mapping/codding/modding, etc... I do know a little about history, but by no means do I have a PhD or college degree in the subject. My bachelors degree is in Health Sciences, so history is merely a hobby for me. You need to be aware of that also. I am what they refer to as a history buff, just that simple my friend. If you wish to do a more historical map in the future, let me know, I will be glad to assist with any research you need that I can provide. But my research will not be the end all historically either, keep that in mind again RD. I think you are smart enough to know that even then, the map has to be fun to be successful. Otherwise its just another boring history lesson to most players.

Again guys my apologies for getting carried away in the research, sorry bout that honestly. Guess just what happens when you keep your head buried in books. I need to smell the roses, or in this case the TIGERS BURNING! I knew I would be putting my neck on the block with a suggestion of no "TIGERS" lol!! Notice though how I keep working to keep the 85's present huh? My personal favorite!! lol!! Good luck and best wishes for the map RD! I think you have more than enough info now, the rest is up to you! I think we are all waiting patiently and looking forward to the FARM Beta 5 release. Take some time and make it your way. Personally I can't wait! OneShot

[Mike Nomad]

Check into the numerous battles in the regional areas of the massive armor spearheaded battle at Kursk...

:)

[OneShot]

Check into the numerous battles in the regional areas of the massive armor spearheaded battle at Kursk...

:)


Good idea Mike, has to be something comparable there I would think for R. Dog? Only the Largest and Greatest Tank Battle of WWII!

[Reservoir Dog]

RD;

1st PzD went into the battle with 20 PzIV, 25 PzV, 7 StuG III, 13 Marders. In the course of the fighting the division got another 20 PzV.

The 8th PzD, which arrived a little bit later, was far better equipped in September 1944 it was issued with 37 PzIV and 37 PzV, all of them factory new.

The last Panzer Division that was engaged in that area was 24th PzD, which went into action on September 23 1944 with 33 Pz IV, 8 Pz III's and 36 StuG and StuH.

The Germans also had three StuG brigades - 300, 301, and 311 - with 24, 5 and 27 StuG/StuH respectively.



It looks like we are going to have to work into the map some Stugs. Which happens to be a very cool tank to drive. Ok, so any suggestions on the tank line-up and balance? I agree that I wouldn't want to pull the Tigers or T34s from the map, my favorite tanks too. Historically correct or not. Adding more tanks is one thing but leaving out some tanks that were part of the battles, that is another. I think for that when this map is released we can be upfront with what is historical and what isn't. We can also say something like the Tigers represents some of the tanks that we can't incorporate into the map right now. I remember reading the Gorletz beta 1 posting when the map creator said that not much fighting happened in this town but based the map on it. It was accepted by the community and is very popular. We can basically do the same and tell about the Carpathian history leading up to Dukla Pass. It would be nice to not just say these tanks weren't there but why they weren't there (like production wasn't done in this region or a number of them were destroyed before reaching this area). For the name, we could go with something generic like "Carpathian Farm" or should we go with "Valley of Death" or the name of another village? I will let you decide since the name of the map should reflect the history behind it.

One Shot, you don't know how much I would like to try to make an underground bunker right now. I will go with Mike's suggestion for the objective for a couple of reasons. First, the objective is on a plateau surrounded by water and a bridge. It has to be a defensive objective for the reason why its built there. The underground bunker is relying more on stealth than defense. Second is that I have that one bunker already and would like something else unique. The objective is going to be a "barracks" that is surrounded by a wall. The wall will let tanks into it and will be able to get recon, set artillery or rally points, and snipe from the top of it. It has doors for infantry on both sides and the back and tanks will be able to patrol the entire perimeter but not go into the smaller doors. I didn't want too much of a maze of building so it would be hard for one or two tanks to control it and it would be more of an "infantry only" area. I will just have a barracks with some props scattered around. The advantage of being on the wall is that you can snipe alot of area including a few objective areas. The disadvantage is that if a tank or infantry goes into the compound you are very vulnerable up there (one ladder to get up or down and just one box to safely jump down on.)


http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7783/barracks8sh8.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks8sh8.jpg)
Barracks in still a work in progress. This is the outside front. I thought it needed outside flood lights. This should be a very defensive objective because this is where the troops sleep.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9549/barracks7af5.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks7af5.jpg)
Another angle. There will be places for the infantry to hide from tanks however infantry backing up tanks won't have to look around for ever to clear out.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3128/barracks6md6.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks6md6.jpg)
Inside the barracks building. I will have to add more details. I would like to have those big wooden boxs that were lots of beds stacked onto each other that are in the pictures of barracks are that time. I might just make it from brushes or be lazy and go with the bunk beds.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2697/barracks5mu5.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks5mu5.jpg)
Some of the details will have "historically accurate" pin-ups inside the barracks.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9233/barracks4ve8.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks4ve8.jpg)
Behind view of barracks
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5796/barracks3vc2.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks3vc2.jpg)
Having natural terrain inside of the "zoned off" barracks walls in tricky and giving me alot of problems. I might have to with a bsp terrain. Since the entire inside of the wall of the barracks is zoned off I can add as much detail (textures, meshes, emitters, etc) inside and it won't affect the overall performance outside. I will start a new thread in the "level design" of the ROgame.com forums to ask my options.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4420/barracks2kd6.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks2kd6.jpg)
Terrain lighting is off but the lighting for the props in good. That little square patch of grass in the middle is a bsp terrain. I will probably have to go this that. Natural terrain doesn't seem to work in a zone on top of an existing terrain zone. The bsp terrain shouldn't affect the general map performance because it will be all inside of the zone and seems to work well with the lighting and everything else.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4506/barracks1hw7.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks1hw7.jpg)
The only way to get up on the guard platform of the wall. You can see there is no cover if an enemy is inside.

I think I will save the underground bunker idea for the Dukla Pass map. One thing I noticed is that you can turn off the "show on overhead map" part of an objective. Wouldn't it be neat to have to actually find an underground bunker in a wooded area first to capture it? It could show on the objective list something like "Find and secure the underground bunker" and you would have to search a forest area to find it.

I have taken away the satchels from the crewman and added the satchel spawns. They work great! I won't have them at the spawns since I have seen it is too easy for immature players to spawn kill their own team with them. There will be 2 satchel spawns at secondary objective (barn and farmhouse) and the first objectives (church and depot). There will be 3 panzerfaust spawns at first objective and 2 at the secondary objectives. They both have a 45 second spawn time. Does this sound reasonable? 30 seconds seemed to quick and 1 minute seemed to long. I think this will keep a limit on how many people are running around able to kill tanks and serve to made these objective "valuable" to defend. Should also limit the suicide bomber tactics I have seem on the map too. For example, if the germans can secure the farmhouse, they will be controlling half of the satchel spawns and almost half of the pfs. This would represent "cutting off supply lines" which is a big part of winning battles even though this is a secondary objective.

An idea I have been kicking around is to give the tank commanders and crewman an option to pick a rifle or the smg. There are a few reasons behind this. First there are more objectives now on the map that will need to be cleared with infantry. Though tanks can shoot inside most of these and pin the enemy down, if there are more enemies inside they will have to clear them to capture. The commanders would have a semi-automatic rifle and the crew would have single shot which would be the right balance for most infantry maps. This would balance the "combined arms" part of the map. Rifles are very popular for players on infantry maps and are preferred to smg for accuracy. The tank crewman was the jack of all trades with the smg, pistol, satchels (before) and grenades. It eliminated assault, combat engineer roles and the tank commander eliminated the team commander role. There are alot of areas now that snipers can use which could be utilized by a good rifleman. And I think that it would add a different gameplay which I think would be more appealing for players that aren't hardcore tank people (basically the best of both worlds). Maybe we can try it on the alpha version and see what we think.

Please let me know what you guys think so far. The feedback on this thread as far as ideas, history references, and commits have taken this map to a new level and will continue to form this map to something that will be enjoyed by many people I believe. A little history, as I have found out with Gorlitz, can make a map very popular with the community, even if its totally off on some points with actual history itself. Myself, working on making a map without bugs, nice details, performance optimized, and good gameplay will increase the popularity too. A combination of these things will make a successful map. Please don't post any appologies here. There is nothing to be sorry about. I would like to have as much history without affecting gameplay or balance as possible. I realize that I have some great resources on this forum: Drecks, a successful experienced map creator; Mike, a server admin with a keen eye for balance and passion for tanks, and One Shot another tank enthusists who loves history. I am very appreciative to all input. Thanks guys,

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;
Absolutely, I think adding Stugs would be a great addition. This was a ambush heavy armour engagement on both sides and both sides also used these types of vehicles to support advance of their infantry. Mike has been playing the sim far longer than I and has far more experience with balanced game play so I would suggest soliciting his opinion, which I am sure he will be forthcoming. My suggestion for a bunker dug in to the hillside in the mortar area with an entrance made from logs would just be for background or visual props, not an actual bunker complex that could be entered! I was thinking similar to a "caved in" mine entrance appearance for it, knocked out from arty or tank fire, looks historically accurate but not actually effect the play of the game. This could visually add to the importance of the area as a cap zone? Also I realize at this late date it may be impossible or impractical, but a few destroyed buildings near the church general area would give more of an impression of a village, which is normally where a country church would be found in this area. Just a suggestion and only just some type of ruins suggesting a very small rural town area. Not some huge urban devastated landscape. Perhaps a knocked down wall or two, a stone fireplace is all I would suggest or something along those lines, very minimal. I don't know what do you think?

You are the mapper, totally up to you R. Dog. Just throwing ideas out, up to you to think if they will stick or not. However, a bunker system type of underground passages in a future map would be very cool! I love your idea of having the opponents have to locate it first!! Fantastic idea!! I like underground access such as in Syks's Tractor Works or Leningrad contests maps. Gives infantry a protective way to advance toward objectives without becoming exposed directly to the ragging tank battle going on above. Infantry could then be battling underground while tanker are slugging it out above with both join together to secure cap zones. I think if you used this in a future map it would add another dimension, especially the infantry enthusiasts whom sometime feel like 2nd citizens in most combined arms maps. And I believe this would be a first for a rural-open country type RO combined arms map, at least none that I am aware. Definitely be another innovative idea on your part RD!

This is not an apology RD, but I still feel I need to say something on the subject. It seems I got a little carried away with the research, posting suggestions for historical accuracy in reference to the FARM that were not my place to put forth and may well have been premature in nature and quite possibly detrimental to the FARM. I have edited my opinions out of most of my previous post on this subject as to not cause any further problems or in any way detract from what is an excellent project, Resevoir Dog's Sturgisov Farm!! This is your creation RD and in the back of my mind I knew you would only do what you feel was in the best interest of your map, so at the time I did not really think much about it. OK, enough said, back on topic.

The frustrating thing for me is not being able to prove existence of certain vehicles, when logically they should be present! We are talking an entire Russian Army, the 38th ( in excess of 100 tanks alone) with numerous Tank Corp and supporting SP's. There must have been at least a few T-34/85's, had to have been! As far as the Tigers, even though they operated independent of the Panzer Divisions, they were active all around this part of the front, how could at the very least not been a a few, or a small company of Tiger I's not present? Were are talking three entire Panzer Divisions, the 1st, 8th, and 24th (nearly 100 Panther tanks alone, many factory fresh)! Even though this action took place after Kursk, many of the heavy Tiger units (sPzAbtz) left the Kursk salient without a scratch and moved on to other battles in and around this immediate area?

One of the main reference book I requested from the University of Central Florida, The Panzer Legions: A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War II and Their Commanders By Samuel W. Mitcham, Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr., has not come in yet, now trying to get a copy out of Nova SouthEastern University. This is a definitive book on all actions of the German Panzer Divisions of WWII. May be another week until I get my hands on a copy of this book. Until I check out this source I still am not yet wiling to give up the research! This is pain staking work, checking out each division, brigade, company, and squadron attempting to find a reference to one of the villages in the Carpathian region. It is gonna take a while longer is all I can say to you now RD.

As far as historical artistic liberty something quite interesting occurred in my research for the Carpathians. I have found that during the Battle for Ogeldow several German King Tigers units were active (some of the first Kings used on the Eastern Front). Some of the heavy Tiger units (sPzAbt's) were refitted and equipped with the new King Tiger II's replacing their previous Tiger I's. Ogeldow is a stock RO map out of the box, yet the Kings are not present nor referenced on this map, one of the developers own maps! Maybe due to the fact that they had not modeled the King or possibly missed the fact, but seems like quite an omission? I think if we were to research other RO maps I believe the same historical artistic privileges would apply? As in one of my previous post I just don't know how much liberty historically is OK and who actually judges? Can anyone please tell me? Does it really matter?

I think your load out of vehicles on your FARM map is correct as is and I would state emphatically do not delete any of them for any reason. Your map is so much fun as is R. Dog. Name choice for your map of course is yours R D, but any of your previous suggestion I believe would be correct and appropriate. If you want my opinion, given the fact that your map has a farm, a church (part of a village), located in a valley surrounded by mountains and rivers, I would use one of the three villages I named in a previous post + FARM (Kapisova FARM, Nizna Pisama FARM, or Dobroslava FARM) as the title, just my suggestion now. Or perhaps even Kapisova Brook Valley, although I think "Valley of Death" would have more of a RO interest/draw factor imo. The other sounds like a Sunday ladies discussion subject, huh? LOL!!! That really does suck as a title, my God!!! As always your map RD, your call my friend! Screenies are looking very good!!! You have some great ideas RD, you are going to end up being one of the most innovative, and creative mappers this community has ever experienced! OneShot

[Mike Nomad]

As in one of my previous post I just don't know how much liberty historically is OK and who actually judges? Can anyone please tell me? Does it really matter?

There is only one true Judge. The Players.

HISTORICAL ACCURACY CAN KILL
If every map were historically accurate to the umpteenth degree, RO would be an ugly flop. Maps can easily reflect the era, a city, a region, a harbor or any time period. This includes events or geographical reference points relative to World War 2. Where accuracy is absolutely crucial is in the depiction of WW2 weapons, uniforms, equipment and vehicles. But at the same time, we all must keep in mind that "historical accuracy can be as equally destructive as it is beneficial." The maps are for a GAME..... A GAME! Never forget that.

Sure! A map can be informative and "lean" on a historical event by including an account of the events relative to the map's overall design in an accompanying prologue or prelude description of the time and battle.

Mappers must never ever lose or relinquish the right to utilize their artistic liberty and creativity freely. The most successful maps are truly the products of artistic liberty and creativity.

THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT
Now the important facet, the entertainment factor. Without emphasis on the entertainment factor, the map will be a boring exercise in mental masturbation. You see, we all know the historical outcome of WW2, the Germans LOST! The Allies WON! End of story.

BUILD SUCCESS INTO YOUR MAP
Of all the maps produced for RO, very few can be considered "Epic Successes" far too many went overboard with historical accuracy zeal and thus, destroyed the playability balance and entertainment factor of the map, the balanced play was gone and the outcome of the map was totally known and inevitable. The truly successful maps are well designed, completely thought out and planned for balanced gameplay with generous doses of immersion and enjoyable entertainment levels that guarantee repetitive play of the map.

COPYCATS & MAP HACKERS
Then we have the "wannabe uber mappers" who insist upon demonstrating they are better mappers than anyone else by altering the stock maps and/or the maps produced by others. WAKE UP!! MAKE YOUR OWN MAPS! Nine out of ten of those misguided efforts are ugly flops. Original custom maps that offer high levels of entertainment, immersion and enjoyment that bring players back again and again for more are in fact, Massively Successful Maps. All others are either flops or exercises in mediocrity.

ITS A GAME - NOT A HISTORY LESSON
If people seeking entertainment via a quality, highly detailed FPS (some try to call RO A SIM - pure folly) wanted history lessons, they'd enroll in a course at a local institution of higher learning or a library study group. People do NOT buy a GAME to learn history. Any assumption of such is pure lunacy.

"YOU ARE THERE" FACTOR
Most maps contain recognizable or alluded to geographical features, landmarks or other era prevalent items to lend credibility to the map, it's time frame (WW2) and general location. By doing so, the player's "immersion" factor is greatly enhanced. The player can actually imagine "being there". Remember, pay attention to area specific architecture, recognizable items and time specific decor. By doing so, the immersion levels are greatly enhanced.

[OneShot]

There is only one true Judge. The Players.


Thank you Mike, that was exactly the answer I was hoping for, and the way it should rightly be!!!! Well stated my friend. OneShot

[OneShot]

R. Dog;

How stupid is this? While doing more research of the Valley of Death from the Dukla Pass Battle, I happened upon something so obvious it is embarrassing!!! All over this area following the war the people of Slovakia erected monuments to commemorate the terrible loss of life that occurred there during fall of 1944. These monuments are made from actual vehicles, weapons, etc.. discovered and then restored from the battlefields there following the war. Please look at the following pictures I have uploaded here. Are these not in fact T-34/85's or not? Sure the heck look like them to me. Must admit that until I saw one of these pictures from a side/rear angle in an obscured Polish tour guide site (see the difference between image #1 & #4 of the same Valley of Death memorial) I did not get a good view of the entire vehicle. However, the picture in the farmers fields with the cow nearby I have looked at repeatedly, and never put two and two together. The last picture is still of another T-34/85 in another farmers field (notice a pattern here RD? T-34 memorials to the battle located basically in the middle of no where other than obscured farmers fields!) in the Dukla Pass battlefield area! If nothing else we verified that at least these three separate pieces of armour were recovered in the area, so if nothing else, there were at least 3 (and surely far more) T-34/85 engaged and in all likely hood knocked out at the "Valley of Death"! How dumb can I be???!!!! I guess it is true that sometimes you can not see the Forrest for the trees! SOB I knew the 85's had to be there, I just knew it!!!!Now for the Tigers? OneShot

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

Here is a couple of maps showing the part of the battlefield we are talking about. Unfortunately, I do not know how to post here full view so you will have to click on the file. The first map is of the Valley of Death, while the 2nd is of the large general battle area shown by the red star where the Dukla Pass conflict took place in reference to the other countries in the general region!

[OneShot]

This is how the Carpathians look today. Even the scars of war could not hurt their beauty. From what I understand they appear now as they had during the Dukla Pass Campaign. Just in case you wanted a first hand look RD. The first shot is of one of the narrow mountain passes, with a road and small stream running along it. Can you imagine attempting to get a column of armour through there? IMO your mountains look very similar on your map to these. Also of interest notice the weather in the panoramic view, and the wide open rolling farm lands in the valleys of the Carpathians. The overcast weather screen shots you recently posted look remarkably the same. Quite spectacular!!

[Reservoir Dog]

The map is coming along very well. I have added all of the "polishing" to the barracks and it looks great and I am happy with it. Finishing up on the optimizing and I noticed that my big problem is the trees and bushes in the middle of the map. The reason its a problem is because there are so many static meshes in a small area without a zone (building around it) and no big hills (to hide them from rendering when you can't see them). Basically almost anywhere on the map they can be viewed in their entirety. Anywhere else you go you get a high frames per second (60-80) but the tree area drops it to 30s (which is of course better than alot of infantry maps.) To get this map optimized as well as possible I am going to add a very big hill in the center of the trees and add an anti-portal. This will slow tanks down and give infantry more cover (which is why its there anyway). I will also cull the distance to the interior trees. Though I was hesitant to do this at first I think it will actually create better gameplay and better frames.

I have created cap volumes for all objectives which basically means that to capture you have to enter the barrack's walls, be inside the church stone wall, be inside the ammo depot, walk inside the barn or farmhouse, be inside the sandbag area of the bunker. Its a little more precise and consistent for capturing objectives now.

I have added the choice for rifles or smgs for the tank commands and crew. I have zoned all of the buildings and boy did that really help on the optimizing.

Basically, all I need to do is play with the trees and bushes in the middle, tweak a little more on the landscape, make another overhead map, add bot paths and we are ready to alpha test.

One Shot, I really like that second picture of the landscape. It reminds me of the mountains I created. I think I will play with adding little ridges to it and put grass on them. I think that will give them an even more realistic look. The name of the map will be "Valley of Death." I know if I was scanning the internet games for RO and saw that I would be immediately attracted. Since everything has been reworked on the map and a little history added I think the name change is in order. The tank line-up will stay the same so if it creates debates on ROgame.com's forum let it. We will continue to post under this thread till the alpha testing and then we can create a new one with the likes and dislikes of the map. One shot, if I could get the team names (divisions), descriptions and a brief synopsis of "Valley of Death" that would move us closer to the release. Thanks for your work.

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

One Shot, I really like that second picture of the landscape. It reminds me of the mountains I created. I think I will play with adding little ridges to it and put grass on them. I think that will give them an even more realistic look. The name of the map will be "Valley of Death." I know if I was scanning the Internet games for RO and saw that I would be immediately attracted. Since everything has been reworked on the map and a little history added I think the name change is in order. The tank line-up will stay the same so if it creates debates on ROgame.com's forum let it. We will continue to post under this thread till the alpha testing and then we can create a new one with the likes and dislikes of the map. One shot, if I could get the team names (divisions), descriptions and a brief synopsis of "Valley of Death" that would move us closer to the release. Thanks for your work.

Reservoir Dog

Consider it done, and my pleasure. I have been working on the make up of the units involved already and am done with the Allied (Soviet) team (see below) as well as the having the synopsis all but done. How many words, lines, paragraph do you think for the synopsis? I'll check other RO maps and gauge it accordingly if you have no preference. Still waiting on that reference book from the library (hopefully early next week, but have other sources as well if need) to determine if Axis (German) team should be made up of either the 1st, 8th, or 24th Panzer Division and their supporting infantry unit. I like the name change as well. It fits, and believe the first RO map, other than Tractor Works that does not have a city in the title. Should draw immediate attention then your maps game play will keep them! I'll write it up and post it here if you like. Been recuperating from surgery(no big deal) the past few weeks so nothing but time on my hands. Don't go back to the grind for another week so should be able to wrap up my part well in advance of that. I got those pics from a Polish Travel Agency looking to book tours of the area. As I have said in other posts, the more research I have uncovered the more your maps fits this battle. I still believe we may find a Tiger or too lurking around, not ruling that out completely, but controversy is a good attention grabber RD, publicity is always a plus!


For the record "Valley of Death":

Allied units: Soviet 38th Army's , 1st Ukranian Front
12th Guards Tank Brigade armour
305th Soviet Rifle Division of the 67th Rifle Corps infantry
Commander : General K. S. Moskalenko

Both are key/major combatants and are heaviest involved in the action in the "Valley of Death" for the Allies!

German units : German First Panzer Army , Army Group East
PanzerGruppe "Heinrici" (definite)

24th Panzer Divsion armour (tentative for now!!!!!)
246th Infantry Division infantry (tentative for now!!!!!!)

or

1st Panzer Division armour (tentative for now!!!)
113th Panzer Grenadier Regiment infantry (tentative for now!!!!)
Commander ; General Gotthard Heinrici (definite!!!)

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

Probably way way late at this stage, but here are a few pictures taken recently from the area where the Valley of Death occurred. These buildings have been preserved as "open air" memorials as such to that era. The house picture strongly resembles houses in the RO Arad map, which is not geographically all that far from this site. Now the picture of the wooden church from Dobroslava (one of the three village where this battle took place) was destroyed during the Valley of Death battle and was rebuilt exactly following the war looks much more impressive than it is really is, (size, construction) only three rooms, and is made entirely from wood from the area. Of note would be the crosses at the top of the church. Found another memorial in the hills surrounding one of the villages in the Valley of Death also. Apparently these type of memorials are all over the fields, valleys, and passes there! Be a cool place to visit/tour someday. I really enjoy being at actual battlefields, very hallowed ground imo! Should have gotten these to you sooner.

[Reservoir Dog]

I like those pics One Shot. When I have been looking at pics of villages from that area it seems to show a number of houses that have the white stone/mortar finish on the outside. I will play with the texturing of the farm house and see if I can make it look like that. It would give it a very distinctive look and really stand out. I'm not sure that I will add that roof since I have a smoke stack vent already on mine and it has a second floor. I think I will save the exact house depicted for Dukla Pass. I'm pretty happy with the church I have right now since it allows for snipers and commands to use the roof. I have seen a church that looks real close to that one in the Arad night map. I could easily pull that church off with those static meshes and some more texturing but I will save that for Dukla Pass too.

I have made final touch ups to the mountains and about a 1/3 of the way with bot paths. The hill in the middle of the trees seems to work well. I had to scrap culling trees idea because when trees are on a hill they are noticed when they appear and disappear, even from a distance. Because this map is not "sectioned off" and has wide open areas with long distances (for sniping and tanking) and alot of details there will be areas with a small drop in fps. I will optimize as much as I can without affecting details. Having tanks and snipers on a map makes culling a challenge but there are other ways to optimize. I suspect we might be able to alpha test in a week.

[OneShot]

Map looks fantastic as is RD!! Very realistic and looks extremely similar to the Slovakia area during the battle! Just posting info as I come across it for future considerations. Looking forward to the "Alpha" of the " Valley of Death!" Nice work R. Dog!