A Few Thoughts for ALL Mappers

[Mike Nomad]

Please, and this is friendly, from the heart, advice after a full day of observation. For all mappers, please, give strong consideration to balance of play in each of your maps.

This is a GAME, not a history lesson. The competition among mappers is presumably to provide the best gameplay possible within a WW2 time frame with accuracy. I hope the competition is not to see who can come up with the best history lesson. I want to believe this is not the case.

I saw a coupla maps today blow out a full server TWICE after they were running for a short while because of anemic weapons and vehicle loadouts along with heavy bias toward either the Russians or Germans.

It is very sad to see that when you have 10 or more people per side and are able to accommodate them with vehicles and weapons map-wise, and then suddenly they're thrust into a map that's obviously pre-decided but "Historically Accurate". They quit and leave saying they'll be back when they can enjoy themselves.

Seeing them stand around waiting for a tank or a weapon is pitiful. Then they give up in disgust and split. This must be taken seriously, as it can effect the future of your maps and RO itself. If we get too carried away with the History Lessons we will eventually bore people to tears. The maps in question were gorgeous to view but definitely not Combined Arms and certainly, NOT balanced. Its a game fellas, remember... its a game meant to entertain, not teach or showcase anyone's historical knowledge and expertise.

Offering a "Combined Arms" map with a few token tanks per side is ok but it will not be a winner among admins who see server participation dwindle. Please mappers, give this due consideration. You may very well have the deciding factors of the future before you.

[tsamptrail]

Here! Here! Very well put. I love history, however this is a game and it does need to be balanced.

[OneShot]

Mike;
You hit it right on the head, could not agree with you more. PS. I will work on my threads/posts, thanks for the info on the editor and for all the help! OneShot

[Mike Nomad]

Ramm-Jaeger head man of TW posted this TODAY in the RO forums...

From: '[RO]Ramm-Jaeger;

I'm completely with Mike on this one. Balance certainly is one of the hardest things to do when making a map for a multiplayer game and balance issues are a huge problem with many of the custom maps (and even a few of the official ones). A mapper can't just cop out and say their map is "historical" or that "balance is up to the players". If they do that, they're only doing half the work necessary to make a great map. It's not just about people not liking a "challenge". Slaughtering the other team over 1 single area of the map for 45 minutes when you are defending is not fun. For it to be enjoyable to play defense on a map, you have to know that if you don't play well you will lose. On the flip side, you have to know that if you do play well that you could win. Any map where the winner is a forgone conclusion will end up being boring - you might as well read a book or watch a movie about the battle.

It all boils down to this - If you want people to play your map, it has to be fun for both sides to play. And for those mappers in the mapping competition, we rate balance VERY high in the judging. There were many maps that would have done better in the first phase if they were just balanced.

SOURCE (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=264626#post264626)

[Mike Nomad]

That folks, is the "Main Man" at Tripwire... The best developers I've EVER dealt with. They really have it "on the ball".

[JAKL]

Then when it was cross posted elsewhere, I and several other members here were ridiculed and slagged off. Which is a wonderful way of encouraging new users to NOT offer any criticism or suggestions in the future.

Really? Since you love to put quotes out there, care to provide some examples where you or RGN were ridiculed? Your idea was disagreed with but far from ridiculed. In fact the following statements were made by Slyk and myself

Slyk:
Guys, please don't go running over to RGN and posting arguments. I haven't gone back to review posts there and don't plan to. Please don't cause any flame-ups, I don't need to be accused of starting any new crusades.

Thanks.

JAKL:
Exactly this was not meant to be a crusade or anything like that but rather bring out feedback that wasn't seen either here or on the RO boards. A mapper needs to hear all perspectives which is why I brought the feedback here.

We did have some fun at your expense when you stated the following on the RO boards.

You've (Slyk) been carrying on and sending you minions all over the net attacking me and the RGN members for trying to help.
As far as I know Slyk and I are the only ones that have said anything here regarding your feedback. So given the fact that YOU lumped all of AHGN in as his minions, we had some fun and made some signatures reflecting our new status.

As for your 12 tank per side suggestion it still comes down to not enough players available to accommodate more tank slots. The way it is now the Germans have 4 tanker roles (2 for each available tank) and the Russians have 2 or 3 tank roles, enough to work as a team for the one tank they have. Each team only has 16 maximum slots so that leaves 12 infantry for the Germans and 13 for the Russians. All of those are needed in order to fight over the objectives while the tanks provide support. Now perhaps the 12 per side is so that nobody was ever waiting for a tank but given the fact the T-34 has a 1 second respawn and the Germans have a 5 second there is minimal waiting as it is.

You state that you wont post at AHGN because it is a hostile environment for you. I have been called every name in the book by you and some of the other members here and yet here I am regardless. You find it perfectly fine to sit behind your closed forums and take potshots at people but when push comes to shove you have no balls. You are a virtual bully that doesn't know what to do when somebody stands up to you and tells you that you are full of it. You are not the crusader of the RO community but one guy with an opinion. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion does not mean they are slagging you off or disparaging your community. Get over yourself.

[OneShot]

Guys;
I just don't get it, maybe I am dumb or stupid, but I can't seem to figure it out. I have read and reread all the initial posting about TW and I can not see any personal attacks or derogatory criticisms towards any individual, on anyone's part. Quite the opposite I believe. Maybe someone took something someone said to heart and then the first stone was thrown, and here we are today. What is the point of a forum if not to promote open and free discussions. :eek:

If you do not want to read a forum, and obviously learn someone else's opinion whom posts, then don't. Just people thinking out loud, correct? Bouncing ideas and thoughts off each other. Nothing personal I believe. You may like what they say but you should also be prepared for the opposite. If you ask or seek opinions, that is just the way it will be, you take a chance. Given that though, I still fail to see anything said here initially at this forum as personal in nature.

I am a track head, enjoy the armor aspect of the game, so if you want my opinion it will be in favor of more armor in a combined arms map. Hey, I love Danzig also, so it does not mean I won't still play and enjoy myself, just that its human nature to want it your way, right. I think Slyk's TW map is fun, and have and continue to play it often! We all have our own preferences, thats all! :)

Ever level a criticism via Voice Menu ("I will kill you" or "insult" i.e.) at an opponent while playing RO? I have, was it personal, of course not. Did I hope to rattle them, maybe. Is it part of the game, yup. Something to think about, up to you? Could this be what this is all this about? Hmm!!! :confused:

I have nothing but the the utmost respect for the creations and contributions made by Slyk, Drecks, and all those who labor to make maps/mods for the enjoyment and betterment of the entire RO playing community. But please make no mistake I have the same respect and admiration for Mike and the other Admins whom also create and labor tirelessly to keep sites like RGN and AHZ up and their associated servers chugging flawlessly along so we can all enjoy RO gaming.

I can not begin to imagine the time it takes to create a map for RO, but I would think it would equate to the same amount of time it takes to keep a network and its servers running also! I'm sure Slyk works extremely hard at his craft as does Mike, and I for one am very grateful for both their efforts. Other than myself I have not seen any other RGN member even post on this topic. No one in my opinion has "piled on" as it were to slam or disrespect anyone or any network. :whaa1:

I feel bad that anyone mistook mine or Mike's initial threads here in a negative way or choose to do the same somewhere else? But you know what, things have been said here at this forum, by members of RGN I must point out, which not only disrespects Mike but the entire Raiders Gaming Network! I would expect no less than the Administrator to put those individuals to task, which Mike has and I applaud and support him as all RGN members I believe would. Can you blame him, would you not expect the same from your Network Administrator if some one was posting similarly at your networks home? :bravo:

Having said the previous I hope this has been put to rest also. I choose to believe that Slyk and the other members felt they were being disrespected on the forum and thus only defending Slyk, I don't understand or see that view from the initial posting, but I elect to give fellow RGN members, which they are, the benefit of the doubt as I hope I in turn would receive also if the tables were turned.

I look forward to playing everyone on every server. and posting my opinion on every networks forums that will allow me. Again I do not get it guys, but really what does it matter in the grand scheme of things. Seems to me to be some old "bad blood" for what ever reason, which matters little to me. I have only owned RO since just before XMAS, and playing on-line less than that, so it does not affect me in any way shape or form! But for a "newbie recruit " I have to say it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

However, nothing a nice ice cold DRAFT BEER would not remove, maybe some day we can all get together and throw back a few? I hope we can all get past this and move on, after all we all share the same passion, right? RO!!!!!!!

See everyone on the Battlefields, and everyone keep up the good work!

OneShot :wink1:

[Mike Nomad]

@ OneShot; Thank you for your support on behalf of myself and all our RGN members.


@ Jakl..

We did have some fun at your expense when you stated the following on the RO boards.

You've (Slyk) been carrying on and sending you minions all over the net attacking me and the RGN members for trying to help. Got a link?


Further, I am going to ignore the remainder of your tirade.

[JAKL]

@ Jakl..

Got a link?

Sure thing

Individual Post (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264800&postcount=25)

from

this thread (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16333&page=2)


Further, I am going to ignore the remainder of your tirade.

I know it's hard to argue with the truth, not that it's stopped you before ;)

[Wizz]

Sure thing

Individual Post (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264800&postcount=25)

from

this thread (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16333&page=2)




I know it's hard to argue with the truth, not that it's stopped you before ;)

Why don't you ALSO check out Slyk's posts and see where and how the bull**** started. Before you throw stones you better make sure your house isn't made of glass. As for facts, it was Slyk who started this whole crap to begin with. Yet you failed to mention that part now huh.

Oh thats right, good ole Slyk, a fellow AHGN member. The very same who caved into a well known liar and mod thief just so that you boys at AHGN can get out CNQ.

Nuff said and as far as replying I will not. If anyone wants to know the REAL deal with AHGN go do a search for CNQ on this site. You will find it all.

[Mike Nomad]

Sure thing

Individual Post (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264800&postcount=25)

from

this thread (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16333&page=2)




I know it's hard to argue with the truth, not that it's stopped you before ;)



@ Jakl; Rave on.........

__________________

For everyone else; please keep an open mind and read that entire thread HERE (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16333). Then, make up your own mind. Draw your own conclusions. Do not rely upon my comments here or anyone else's for that matter. Read that thread thoroughly, it reveals the whole truth. And at the same time, offers the reactions and true motivations of people.


(moved here to keep the other topic - on topic.)

[JAKL]

Mike, you sir are the world's biggest hypocrite. For years I listened to you rail on IWN about how they suppress free speech and edit posts and how RGN is the bastion of free speech and topics can be discussed so that the truth can come out. Not even going into the crap you put myself and After-Hourz through during UncleBone's CNQ map release because of your obsession with Tally but now in this very thread you have done it again. Between editing Slyk's post on the top of page two and now deleting my last two comments that rebut your assertion that we have slagged you and/or the members of RGN off you have proven that if Slyk is just like Collier than you are just like BC and the rest of FKMod that run IWN. The difference is they just edited or closed when you went overboard and instigated flamewars. I just told the truth and since my posts show you for what you are, you delete them. You are a hypocrite and a coward.

And sense you will probably delete this as well, I will repost what you deleted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike_Nomad
Then when it was cross posted elsewhere, I and several other members here were ridiculed and slagged off. Which is a wonderful way of encouraging new users to NOT offer any criticism or suggestions in the future.Really? Since you love to put quotes out there, care to provide some examples where you or RGN were ridiculed? Your idea was disagreed with but far from ridiculed. In fact the following statements were made by Slyk and myself


Slyk:
Guys, please don't go running over to RGN and posting arguments. I haven't gone back to review posts there and don't plan to. Please don't cause any flame-ups, I don't need to be accused of starting any new crusades.

Thanks.
JAKL:
Exactly this was not meant to be a crusade or anything like that but rather bring out feedback that wasn't seen either here or on the RO boards. A mapper needs to hear all perspectives which is why I brought the feedback here.We did have some fun at your expense when you stated the following on the RO boards.


You've (Slyk) been carrying on and sending you minions all over the net attacking me and the RGN members for trying to help.As far as I know Slyk and I are the only ones that have said anything here regarding your feedback. So given the fact that YOU lumped all of AHGN in as his minions, we had some fun and made some signatures reflecting our new status.

As for your 12 tank per side suggestion it still comes down to not enough players available to accommodate more tank slots. The way it is now the Germans have 4 tanker roles (2 for each available tank) and the Russians have 2 or 3 tank roles, enough to work as a team for the one tank they have. Each team only has 16 maximum slots so that leaves 12 infantry for the Germans and 13 for the Russians. All of those are needed in order to fight over the objectives while the tanks provide support. Now perhaps the 12 per side is so that nobody was ever waiting for a tank but given the fact the T-34 has a 1 second respawn and the Germans have a 5 second there is minimal waiting as it is.

You state that you wont post at AHGN because it is a hostile environment for you. I have been called every name in the book by you and some of the other members here and yet here I am regardless. You find it perfectly fine to sit behind your closed forums and take potshots at people but when push comes to shove you have no balls. You are a virtual bully that doesn't know what to do when somebody stands up to you and tells you that you are full of it. You are not the crusader of the RO community but one guy with an opinion. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion does not mean they are slagging you off or disparaging your community. Get over yourself.

To this your replied

Mike_Nomad

@ Jakl..

Got a link?
Sure thing

Individual Post (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264800&postcount=25)

from

this thread (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16333&page=2)



Further, I am going to ignore the remainder of your tirade.I know it's hard to argue with the truth, not that it's stopped you before ;)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess you decided not to argue with the truth but rather just act like it was never posted.

[Mike Nomad]

Oh what fools we make of ourselves when we "assume" the worst and jump to foolish conclusions.... :d


Nothing was deleted. All your raving is here...



RAVE ON Little man, RAVE ON!! :confused:

[Wizz]

Rave on dude. Catch the rave................................

[JAKL]

Nice, so you move my post that responds to you stating that AHGN has slagged you off to a different thread so that your accusation can stand without retort. Way to mess with perceptions.

Why don't you ALSO check out Slyk's posts and see where and how the bull**** started. Before you throw stones you better make sure your house isn't made of glass. As for facts, it was Slyk who started this whole crap to begin with. Yet you failed to mention that part now huh.

Really, Slyk started this? Considering the fact Mike has told Slyk that he made the comment to instigate thought on his part while also stating that Slyk was stubborn and never thought he would really implement 12 tanks in the first place, Mike in fact knowingly instigated a flame war and when taken in context it makes sense Slyk responded the way he did. So Mike stirred the pot and now wants to sit back like he's done nothing wrong and been attacked.

Oh thats right, good ole Slyk, a fellow AHGN member. The very same who caved into a well known liar and mod thief just so that you boys at AHGN can get out CNQ.

Nuff said and as far as replying I will not. If anyone wants to know the REAL deal with AHGN go do a search for CNQ on this site. You will find it all.

You really want to go there again Wizz? All that does is prove more ways in which the admins at RGN don't follow what they preach. They slandered myself and AHGN and when confronted with the facts they removed the thread only to be shamed into putting it back after I posted the entire conversation on the AHGN boards to show everyone what you truly are. Wizz you don't help Mike's argument one bit, all you do is dig the hole deeper.

[Mike Nomad]

RAVE ON............. :confused:

[Wizz]

RAVE ON............. :confused:


+ 1

Rave on dude.........................

[LaFlecha]

Wow!

Just....amazing...

http://seoblackhat.com/upimage/tinfoilhat.jpg

[Wizz]

Nice pic, LOL LMAO ROFL

[Mike Nomad]

The tin foil hats look just right!! They come to a point!!


TRUE PINHEADS!!


Truly, funny stuff... :d

[Mike Nomad]

To get back to and remain on topic,

In addition to what was mentioned at the top if this thread (http://forums.raidersmerciless.com/showthread.php?t=647), It must be emphasized that when creating custom maps, mods and muts the "secret" is balanced play.

Providing a map, mod or mut with obvious bias, in either direction, soon puts that item on a slippery downward slope to an early demise.

Speaking of balance and a diligent effort to maintain such, I cannot begin to describe the amount of effort that went into Zhitomir and previously Lazur by Drecks to ensure balanced play. Truly, its a major key to a successful map.

Tochiri's maps, as another example like Drecks' offer, among other positives, balanced play.. its entirely up to the player skills to decide the "winners" not some dumbed down, built-in map bias.

Once I discover through player comments and my own experiences that a map has severe built-in bias, it becomes history on our servers. Usually though, when the observations of bias are pointed out to the mapper, its either modified or explained away. If its explained away and the players on our servers are still unhappy with the map... it gets binned.

There are far too many "good to great" maps out there to fuss over a few wacky, selfishly biased maps that punish players.


Bottom line.... don't FORCE anything simply because its what "you want.." make it balanced. Thus, allowing player skills to decide the outcome.

[TruSlaughter]

well mike, i just derive satisfaction that some of the things we pointed out in TW were fixed in beta4

[Mike Nomad]

well mike, i just derive satisfaction that some of the things we pointed out in TW were fixed in beta4


Yes, that is part of the idea of "us all being in this together". Helping each other is the name of the game.:wink1:

[Rebel_US]

My 2 Cents from the 'silent-masses'...

And PLEASE dont fly off the handle if you receive any sort of 'negative' comments on your maps.

It is in NO WAY to be taken as a critique of the obvious hard work that mappers/modders/etc put into their work - it is only a 'what-if' proposal from us lowelly GAMERS - the players.

You may have your perceptions of what you design into the maps, however real-world game play will reveal faults that will either define your map as a 'classic' - or another half-finished map.

At least LISTEN to any critiques of your hard efforts - and realize that not all Gamers are created equal. Nor do critics have any hidden 'agenda' against you.

[ExoCet]

From a Modders/Mappers stand point, I would stress to all who play maps to ALWAYS give constructive feedback.

Every mapper worth his salt will tell you they are constantly bombarded with posts "saying this map is crap or it should never have been done this way", With no further comments as to WHY he thinks it is Crap or what in his opinion would make it better.

All to many mappers have given up after receiving too many comments like this, Some like me just disregard those sort of posts with the same respect the poster gave to the mapper.

So please just make sure any feedback given is constructive, it can be as negative as you want, as long as it offers reasons behind your comments and possible solutions. This can and has led to a basic mapper becoming a really good one.

thanks Exo