EA's NEW In-Game Ad Scheme!

[Mike Nomad]

SHARE YOUR IDEAS
AND LEAVE YOUR MARK ON
THE BATTLEFIELD OF THE FUTURE

Battlefield 2142 features in-game billboards which have been also used to enhance the reality of the battlegrounds in the 22nd century. Previous messaging included futuristic fake advertisement for the Dice Travel Agency or propaganda posters from the factions asking you to join their side of the war, amongst others. You think you have a good idea of what ads should be in the year 2142? This is your chance to tell us!

Submit your ideas on this space and they may be included in the game - visible to players world wide. Naturally your ideas should tie in to the futuristic setting and/or story of Battlefield 2142. Your creativity is appreciated for the submissions!


http://www.prezenceuk.co.uk/battlefield2142/_css/images/sceneryImages.jpg

Any pixel resolutions is allowed for the images you submit, however it is preferred that they are one of the following ones: 1024x256 px, 512x256 px, 256x256 px, 256x512 px or 256x1024 px. We can use any image format.
If you submit images containing any text, it would be good if these were layered files where the text layer can be easily changed for localization reasons.
Ideas can be picked up at any time, but not after March 31 2007 Once again we are looking forward to receiving your submissions and hope to be able to include some of them in Battlefield 2142!


SOURCE (http://battlefield.ea.com/adidea/?sssdmh=dm24.99644)

_______________


BRILLIANT!....

Nothing like getting the very users you are nailing with ADWARE/SPYWARE/MALWARE to participate in this offensive scheme in hopes of getting their name or BS up in lights to blunt the intrusive edge of running advertisements in a game the users PAID for.

Another ingenious marketing angle that's trying desperately to make the original intrusive garbage "APPEAR" innocent and fun-like! Cripes! The users PAID for the software and program.... why must they be made the ongoing, never ending cash cow?

Try stopping the adverts... the program will not work! In other words, even though you bought the game... you do not and cannot control what it does on YOUR computer. That to me, is an intentional intrusion!!

Come on people wake up!! You bought the game to play the game not foster further marketing schemes, gimmicks and methods to justify and render innocent unfair ADWARE/SPYWARE/MALWARE installations on our machines by programs with this garbage HIDDEN within the installation routines!

Come on DICE and EA.... stop the shenanigans!
Just get rid of the slimy in game advertising scheme!!

_______________

Incredibly and equally unbelievable!! EA & DICE are attempting this nifty "end run" expecting the users to be nitwits and go for it. Its like asking the users "help us ram in-game advertising down your throats!"

Each user must ask themselves, "Did I buy this game to play the game itself or, help make in-game advertising an acceptable, intrusive practice by my participating in making in-game billboard ads too??"

I cannot believe EA and DICE have gone this far to MASK the real and genuine purpose of in-game billboards. REVENUE EARNING ADVERTISEMENTS!!

The users had better realize that if... this effort is successful, advertising and billboards of all sorts will be in ALL our future games and application software as an additional means of earning income on the parts of the Publishers and Developers.

By participating in this ingeniously made harmless appearing and equally nefarious scheme, users will inadvertently be approving in-game advertising.

USERS!! WAKE UP!!
YOU ARE BEING HAD!

[Mike Nomad]

In games ads are here to stay like or loath it its a money maker. It helps EA and alike pay teh bills and fund developement, along with funding shareholder wallets (buy shares) I would if a I could.

I respectfully submit that the revenues from in game adverts really amounts to very little in comparison to their overall earnings... in fact, little enough to not be mentioned in their annual earnings reports yet.

_______________

For the record; Electronic Arts Inc. F4Q06:

Q4 net revenue was $641 million, up 16%, driven primarily by Godfather, Black and by Fight Night Round 3 on the 360. We released 29 SKUs in the quarter, compared to 25 a year ago. We had five titles that went platinum: Godfather, Fight Night Round 3, Black, FIFA Street 2 and The Sims Open for Business. In addition, Need for Speed Most Wanted sold over 1 million copies in the quarter, and The Sims 2 over 900,000.

Console revenue was $360 million, up 14%. The increase was driven by the Xbox 360 and the PS2. While current-gen revenue was down 6%, Xbox 360 revenue more than offset the decline in Xbox.

PC revenue was $104 million, up 22%, primarily due to the strength of Lord of The Rings: Battle for Middle Earth II.

On to the balance sheet. Cash, short-term investments and marketables were $2.4 billion, down from a year ago, primarily related to the completion of our share repurchase program and the cash acquisition of JAMDAT. Gross accounts receivable were $431 million versus $458 million a year ago, a decrease of 6% due to the timing of our release schedule. Reserves against outstanding receivables totaled $232 million, up $70 million from last year. Reserve levels were 12% as a percentage of trailing six-month net revenue, up 4 points from last year. As a percentage of trailing nine-month net revenue, reserves were 9%, up 3 points.

SOURCE (http://seekingalpha.com/article/10019)
_______________

I would hazard a guess that in-game advertising is an experiment at this time and provides very little income. However, it has the potential to become a possible source of revenue. As such, it would be wise and prudent to thoroughly understand exactly what is happening to make in-game advertising an effective medium. The requirements needed to determine the types of ads to be sent to a user's machine are relatively simple;

Geographic location and language used
IP & MAC address harvested
User log files scanned
User likes/dislikes must be determined
Browsing habits & frequented sites must be garnered
Programs and Games most often used
General computing habits obtainedUsually these bits of information are obtained via a user poll or a questionnaire included in the warranty form. Now, with the advent of the INTERNET and instant communications, programs and routines are used to obtain this information discreetly in the background while the purchased software is running.

Obviously, IP addresses, log files, etc., are read and transmitted "home". This type of activity is accomplished using SPYWARE. Usually the data is sent to the advertising and demographic analysis contractor. (In this case, DoubleClick)

Once the data is analyzed and the types of ads suitable for a particular user are determined, they are then transmitted back to the user's machine via the previously obtained IP address. What is sent back to the user is called ADWARE.

Many users have been offended by this practice and have begun attempts to stop the transmissions of data from their machines. In most cases, they found that if they were successful, the purchased software, either a game or application, would NOT run. This is accomplished by the insertion of a detection and verification routine also installed at the time of the installation of the game or application. This is called MALWARE.

So you see, the three beasties are ever-present; SPYWARE/ADWARE/MALWARE.

I can't talk for anyone but myself and I'll be damned if I'm going to give away any information about my browsing habits, my product likes and dislikes and especially, the various uses I have for my computer. Unless of course, I too am financially rewarded for offering such information for the profit oriented purposes intended by Electronic Arts, IGA Adware and DoubleClick.

Further, users would be well advised to pay particular attention to this experimental project because I'd hazard a guess that if..... its successful it'll be worse than getting taxes reduced to have this unsavory practice halted. It must be nipped in the bud. My sincerest advice to all is to boycott any product that has undisclosed embedded SPYWARE/ADWARE/MALWARE in the installation routines.

Especially those products without a WARNING NOTICE included in a prominent location on the outside of the box warning the user of such software being part of the purchased program. EA used an insert the user only saw AFTER breaking the seal thus making it impossible to return the product for a refund.

In-Game advertising is only the beginning.. if we, as users and consumers allow this garbage to continue unabated, these goofs will be spying on our every move, awake or asleep, determining exactly what they wish to sell us.

Don't you see the deep privacy invasion this can become if allowed to flourish?

[Wizz]

Bingo and Mike you said the key words

"Especially those products without a WARNING NOTICE included in a prominent location on the outside of the box warning the user of such software being part of the purchased program. EA used an insert the user only saw AFTER breaking the seal thus making it impossible to return the product for a refund."

Thats the part that pisses me off and why I slammed that asshat over at fpsadmin. That asshat "forgot" to mention the "MILLIONS" of dollars that EA is NOW making off BF2142 in ingame ads.

http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12173

Seems that EA isnt the only ******* doing this crap now. Wait till you boys read this one, and just think I just signed a ****ing 2 year agreement with "Verizon"

http://news.com.com/Verizon+to+allow+ads+on+its+mobile+phones/2100-1024_3-6145950.html?tag=nefd.top


Verizon Wireless, among the nation's most widely advertised brands, is poised to become the advertising medium itself. Beginning early next year, Verizon Wireless will allow placement of banner advertisements on news, weather, sports and other Internet sites that users visit and display on their mobile phones, company executives said.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention this important fact about EA and its adware bs. On EA's downloader site not one mention of this IGA adware bull**** is ever mentioned UNTIL you PAY and DOWNLOAD said game ie BF2142. That is when you are greeted with this crap. Guess what you DL'd it and you are stuck.

[Mike Nomad]

As many of you already know, Battlefield 2142 shipped with code from IGA that displays ads and collects information while the game is being played. This FAQ hopes to educate and answer some of your questions.

Who is IGA?
IGA Worldwide, Inc., www.igaworldwide.com (http://www.igaworldwide.com/), claims to be the global leader in unique 360-degree in-game advertising solutions, helping brands to understand and exploit the rich and diverse opportunities available now and in the future. The company also claims that its proprietary ad serving network, Radial, enables advertisers to target millions of engaged consumers across a wide range of platforms and genres whilst they play.

Why did I never hear about this before?
Well, when you opened the BF2142 box there was a single white sheet of paper, INSIDE THE BOX, with the following disclaimer from IGA:

The Software may incorporate technology developed by IGA Worldwide Inc. ("IGA") (the "Advertising Technology"). The purpose of the Advertising Technology is to deliver in-game advertisements to you when you use the Software while connected to the Internet. When you use the Software while connected ot the Internet, the Advertising Technlogy may record your IP address and other anonymous information ("Advertising Data"). The Advertising Data is temporarily used by IGA to enable the presentation and measurement of in-game advertisements and other in-game objects which are uploaded temporarily to your personal computer or game console and changed during online game play. The Advertising Technology does not collect any personally identifiable information about you, and EA will ont provide IGA with any of your personally identifiable information. The servers used by the Advertising Technology may, from time to time, be located outside your country of residence. If you are located within the European Union, the servers may be located outside the EU.

By installing and using the Software, you agree to: (i) the transfer of the Advertising Data to servers located outside your country of residence and, if applicable, outside the European Union; (ii)the collection and use of the Advertising Data as described in this Section; and (iii) the delivery of advertising and marketing content by the Advertising Technology. IF YOU DO NOT WANT IGA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, OR TRANSMIT THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, DO NOT INSTALL OR PLAY THE SOFTWARE ON ANY PLATFORM THAT IS USED TO CONNECT TO THE INTERNET.

What is known?
Using TDImon TCP/UDP monitor it was discovered that BF2142 was communicating via TCP with an ad web server running at 72.3.184.153 on port 17475.

What additional IP addresses have been identified?
The following IP addresses are registered to IGA:

72.3.184.144 - 72.3.184.159
72.32.5.0 - 72.32.5.15

What ports have been identified?
The following ports have been found:
17475
9961-9962

When will the ads start showing up?
Presently it looks like the first ads started running on October 30, 2006.

Who is the first advertiser?
Intel.

Where are the ads / information collected stored?
All downloaded ads and all information collected are stored in a file named icontent.cache found in "My Documents\Battlefield 2142" directory, without the double quotes.

What is the icontent.cache file?
The icontent.cache is a SQLite database.

What format icontent.cache database?
The icontent.cache database contains the following:

CREATE TABLE content (contentId INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, active INTEGER, activate INTEGER, expire INTEGER, dayparts INTEGER, contentType INTEGER, descriptor TEXT, size INTEGER, viewcount INTEGER, viewlimit INTEGER, displayafter INTEGER, props TEXT, data BLOB)

CREATE TABLE sqlite_sequence(name,seq)

CREATE TABLE contentlist (recordid INTEGER PRIMARY KEY AUTOINCREMENT, appId INTEGER, zoneId INTEGER, contentType INTEGER, contentId INTEGER, userInfo TEXT)

What format are ads in?
BF2142 ads are images in Direct Draw Surface (DDS) format.

How can I view / edit / delete / import / export BF2142 ads?
You can use the micolous's excellent BF2142 Ad Cache Editor.

How can BF2142 Ads be blocked?
BF2142 ads can be blocked using a hardware / software firewall, using ipseccmd command found in Windows XP SP2 Support Tools or using HSC PktFilter software.

How do I block BF2142 Ads using ipseccmd?
Create and run the following batch file to to block the ads:

Download and fully install Windows XP SP2 Support Tools.
Create and run the following batch file:%SystemDrive%

del "My Documents\Battlefield 2142\icontent.cache"

cd "%ProgramFiles%\Support Tools"

ipseccmd -w REG -p "IGA-B-Gone" -r "Block Outbound connections to IGA servers 72.3.184.144/28" -f 0=72.3.184.144/255.255.255.240::TCP -n BLOCK -x

ipseccmd -w REG -p "IGA-B-Gone" -r "Block Outbound connections to IGA servers 72.32.5.0/28" -f 0=72.32.5.0/255.255.255.240::TCP -n BLOCK -x

net stop policyagent
net start policyagent

How do I block BF2142 Ads using PktFilter?

Download pktfilter from http://sourceforge.net/projects/pktfilter/
Extract PktFilter from the file into "C:\Program Files\"
Create "C:\Program Files\PktFilter\pktctl\rules.txt" rules file:# drop packets composed of small fragments
option small_frags on eth0

# default behavior = allow everything
pass in on eth0 all
pass out on eth0 all

# block port 17475

block out on eth0 proto tcp from any to any port = 174754. Create and run the following batch file:
"C:\program files\pktfilter\pktfltsrv" -i "C:\Program Files\PktFilter\pktctl\rules.txt" "C:\Program Files\PktFilter\pktctl\PktFilter.log"

net start pktfilter

"C:\program files\pktfilter\pktctl" -F "C:\program files\pktfilter\rules.txt"


How do I know I'm blocking the ads?
The size of the icontent.cache file in "My Documents\Battlefield 2142\" will be 4,096 bytes or 4 KB.

Where is IGA software embedded?
Among other things RendDX9.dll in "C:\Program Files\Electronic Arts\Battlefield 2142\" directory contains IGA's software.

Tools:

Windows XP SP2 Support Tools, ipseccmd required full installation:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en.

HSC PktFilter
http://www.hsc.fr/ressources/outils/pktfilter/

TDImon, free TCP/UDP monitor:
http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/TdiMon.html

micolous's BF2142 Ad Cache Editor:
http://micolous.id.au/projects/bf2142/

Wireshark, formally Ethereal:
http://www.wireshark.org/

Gimp DDS Plug-In:
http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=4816

Gimp Image Editor:
http://www.gimp.org/

SQLite Database:
http://www.sqlite.org/


SOURCE (http://www.totalbf2142.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8061)

[Wizz]

Expect a PATCH soon from EA to combat the above mentioned way of defeating the ingame ads. EA wants that MONEY to continue to flow in while we get ****ed at the bank.

[Mike Nomad]

Expect a PATCH soon from EA to combat the above mentioned way of defeating the ingame ads. EA wants that MONEY to continue to flow in while we get ****ed at the bank.

If that were to occur...


Electronic Arts has, by their attempting to mask the intrusiveness of in-game ads with an offer to accept "user created ads", opened the door wider to further governmental regulatory scrutinizing of the use of in-game ads and the legality of the methods employed in harvesting consumer information. Especially in the areas of consumer fraud and exploitation.

The truth is, the products involved should be free, paid for by the advertisers and the bandwidth consumed compensated for to the consumers. After all, according to some observers, this is a "highly profitable multi-million dollar" scheme going on. Mostly, both directly and indirectly, at the expense of the consumer.

As far as I am concerned, this entire practice is an egregious violation of consumer rights to privacy and computer security.

[Mike Nomad]

The Differences of ACTIVE & STATIC Advertising
as seen in Console/PC Games & Software


STATIC Advertising:
This type of on the box and in-game/software advertising is non-intrusive in as much as it does not force information harvesting upon the consumer nor does it consume both storage space on consumer hardware or use consumer paid for bandwidth in the presentation of advertisements. The ads users see are permanently programmed into the software. However, that's all changing now that consoles are "coming online" console software is about to change to highly intrusive ACTIVE in-game/software advertising in the name of corporate greed.

ACTIVE Advertising:
This is the insidiously harmful and intrusive side of in-game/software advertising.To begin with, all sorts of personal information relative to the user and computer in use are harvested for example;

Geographic location and language used
IP & MAC address harvested
User owned storage space is forcefully consumed
User log files scanned
User likes/dislikes determined
Browsing habits & frequented sites recorded
Programs and Games most often used
General computing habits obtained
A hidden database is created on the user's machineYou can now understand why many responsible industry observers are concerned about the legal and moral aspects of the latest methods used to obtain consumer information. In addition and especially, the hidden programs installed on consumer's PC's that are utilized in personalizing advertisements aimed at consumers. The advertisements are beamed to the consumer's PC via their bought and paid for connection as they are using the software they also bought and paid for.

As anyone can plainly see, the "at hand" expenses are all unwittingly completely paid for by the consumer. Yet Electronic Arts and other big business corporations are reaping "millions of dollars in profit" from the practice and use of ACTIVE in-game/software advertising.

The Consumer gets to pay for everything. This is WRONG! This is a GOUGE, a SCAM!! Simply put, its just another scheme to relieve people of their hard earned money by unscrupulously greedy big business practices and policies.

As for Electronic Arts and its use of ACTIVE in-game/software advertising, EA would be well advised to discontinue its use before everything they hold dear and true is investigated by various goverment agencies. This would include their entire financial operation, business plan and bookkeeping practices. Or, EA could possibly provide the consumer with the software using ACTIVE in-game/software advertising free of charge and compensate the consumer for the use of the consumer's PC storage space and bandwidth.

In reality, it would be best for everyone concerned if such ACTIVE in-game/software advertising were modified to be more consumer oriented or simply discontinued. The immediate profits will be far outweighed by the ultimate costs and expenses attempting to justify the continued use of ACTIVE in-game/software advertising in its current state of use.


How many of you play POGO? Its the front runner in ACTIVE in-game/software advertising including all the hidden and secretly installed, SPYWARE/ADWARE/MALWARE.

From: NetworkSolutions whois
Registrant:
ELECTRONIC ARTS
209 Redwood Shores Parkway
REDWOOD CITY, CA 94065 US

Domain Name: POGO.COM

Truly, a Pandora's Box has been opened once again by greed.

[Mike Nomad]

My reply to DirtyNap in FPS...


Static ads do take up room on the hard drive of a client. Its small but they do.



In reference to teh EA program:

Geographic location and language used
Yes
IP & MAC address harvested
No
User owned storage space is forcefully consumed
Give me a break the only space used is for the tiny SQLite datbase and on my PC thats less space than the Loading screen.
User log files scanned
No
User likes/dislikes determined
No
Browsing habits & frequented sites recorded
No
Programs and Games most often used
No
General computing habits obtained
No
A hidden database is created on the user's machine
Yes there si a datbase which logs the number of ads you have viewedd and which ads you viewed. No big deal all information is non-identifable and is only log using a unique code like the PB GUID you are given.Mike that list is way of the mark for the EA program, its all possible but at this time only the top and bottom ones are done by any in game ads program currently being used today on the PC. There is nothing bad about the current prorams and I very much dowt any of the publishers would risk PC scanning and data collection beucase if they got cuaght there renveues would take a monster hammering. Also in this day and age of anti spyware programs the thinks would get detected in seconds.

I do agree I hope things don't go any further than they are now and they don't start trying to target ads using any more information than they use know but right know they are doing nothing more than websites do with every visit everyone makes.

Please NOTE: I did NOT say it ONLY APPLIED to the EA Scheme.. It applies to ALL ACTIVE in-game/software advertising. However, when it comes to the POGO activities, it ALL is in use. USER Storage consumption is almost tripled!

Geographic location and language used
Yes -> Via IP address and MAC address (for cable) research.
IP & MAC address harvested
No -> Please note; IP addresses are assigned to ISP's, GSP's and other Bandwidth Service Companies and corporations. Our Company has been assigned 3 class "C" IP address banks (375 IP addresses) all of which point directly to us. The IP adresses are most certainly harvested and used for reference to geographical location.
User owned storage space is forcefully consumed
Give me a break the only space used is for the tiny SQLite datbase and on my PC thats less space than the Loading screen. -> There are a number of areas in which these insipid intruders store their additional data, not simply the SQLite Database.
User log files scanned
No -> They most certainly are as are the Temp Inet Files of your browser!
User likes/dislikes determined
No -> Indeed the user preferences are scanned via user browsing habits.
Browsing habits & frequented sites recorded
No -> ERROR - user prefs scanned
Programs and Games most often used
No -> ERROR - user prefs scanned
General computing habits obtained
No -> ERROR - user prefs scanned
User owned storage space is forcefully consumed
Your reply to the above about the database is totally wrong... There are programs that read all the data in the SQLite Database. In fact, there are now rogue harvesting programs that will scan the net and grab this information.If I didn't know better I'd be inclined to ask you if you are in cahoots with these advertising snoops or have some sort of financial arrangement with them. Of course, I know this isn't true but nonetheless, it might be taken that way. In any case, I'm glad we basically agree. Please bear in mind I've offered you nothing but fact. No supposition, no possibly's and certainly no imagined noise. Everything I have presented is verifiable via reliable sources. Most of which, is available in a similar thread at RGN.

Thankfully, we basically agree.

_______________


Dirtynap;

I'm not going to argue the points indicated. Your points are not entirely accurate. In fact they're erroneous. The points I presented are ALL TRUE and verified factual. I stand by each and every point presented. Picking nits with each other will not solve the horrid problems active advertising presents. I am totally for the users/consumers. I hold no hedged bets or offer protective commentary for any company and/or its profits for any reason whatsoever. Users/Consumers are being taken advantage of unfairly! Regardless of how or what colored glasses you view matter with, it is wrong! The deceptive practices and lack of proper notification and opportunity to reject the product is totally underhanded and fraudulent. That's all there is to it.

Basically we agree and that's what is important.

Active in-game/software advertising/active advertising both are insidiously intrusive. I will support anything to minimize and/or limit if not eliminate its use regardless of whom it effects. I have no problem with static advertising but this active garbage is an invasion of the worst kind. Thankfully, many legislators, (EU, USA, Canada, Australia, Mexico), feel the same way as I and measures are being taken to neutralize its deleterious snooping and intrusive effects. My preference would be to see it stopped altogether. I demand that each of my machines here in the NOC all have passworded accounts, yet these goofs can enter them at will and "do their thing". What is wrong with that picture?

[Mike Nomad]

AT FPS, sUBLIMe has continually and now, again resorted to childish insults, flames and lame trash talk. I should've realized I was dealing with an idiot kid with no common sense. Oh well.... live and learn.

Mike your efforts are useless. Your in the minority with this. No one besides your sidekick has stepped up for you. The huge uproar on the net is overwith as most posts/threads are dated 2 months ago. With 16000 player's online at any given time you a fighting a battle you can never win. If you had something constructive going on like a mod or actually owned bf2142 you might have a leg to stand on. Instead your just on the sideline of game your not involved in, bitchin.

Unfortunately once again, you resort to personal attacks and demeaning dialog. You again betray your complete lack of people/social skills. Maybe its simply your immaturity and lack of wisdom and experience. I don't know and don't really care. Your mundane sarcasm has done nothing but alienate you and your noise from most of us and represent you as a loser. Constructive? Do you know the meaning of the word? Or, do you mean Destructive?

I have presented the facts and truths. You however, have presented nothing but sarcastic negativity, personal assumptions, innuendo and feeble attempts at character assassination. Not one FACT. I believe now you have proven your agenda completely. To your relief, I am certain, I'm done attempting to discuss this matter with you intelligently. I've presented enough truth and facts for those interested to work with as they see fit. I see no point in any further replies to your flames.

As for the current situation, as you have continually and so conveniently ignored, there will be enhanced legislation concerning this debacle including increased user/consumer privacy and fraud protections. Unfortunately since big business is now taking unjust advantage of users and incursions into user/consumer privacy, things will change. Rest assured, there will be tight user/consumer protection regulatory laws before Congress this year. Additionally, the EULA everyone is forced to endure is also being closely examined by the various government consumer protection groups and agencies.

I again apologize to Rudedog, the moderators and the sensible users and members here, I believe I have presented numerous facts and source references to substantiate I presented truth. Whereas sUBLIMe has spent his time at offering personal attacks, supposition, flaming and name calling. Henceforth, if anyone has anything to ask or add, please do so HERE (http://forums.raidersmerciless.com/showthread.php?t=591). (this topic)


It has been said time and time again:

"When a debater resorts to emotional outbursts, personal attacks, distractions and diversions it proves they have no facts or truths to offer".

[Wizz]

From FPS....

Mike your efforts are useless. Your in the minority with this. No one besides your sidekick has stepped up for you.
Like you did over at IWN and defended Tally huh, Nuff said.

The huge uproar on the net is overwith as most posts/threads are dated 2 months ago.
Like I said, this issue is in fact being looked into by attorneys and even state attorney generals. Why, its not the ads themselves but the method and ways that EA "sneaked" this past the check out counter and left he consumer stuck.

With 16000 player's online at any given time you a fighting a battle you can never win.
I beg to differ man on that one. You again haven't done your homework.

Total BF2142 servers avail = 1,603
Total BF2142 players = 7,704

And here is the kicker

There is 53,480 player slots avail to use. Yet it cant even muster 10,000 players. When BF2142 was "first" released it had well over 30,000 players 24/7. Now we see this huge decline in players. Hell it was up there big time and possibly could even over take BF2 itself. Now the big decline has started.

Also when it was first released it was posed to take the number 1 spot. It had 4 times the amount of servers and 4 times the amount of players playing. The game is still new in my book and to see it decline like this would have many folks worried. Did this ADWARE BS have any thing to do with it. Have no idea but did it "contribute" to its decline, prob. BF2142 is a very buggy game and if you happen to even do your homework you would see/read at the official EA forums and other forums dedicated to this that players are pissed. Not just this ADWARE but at the "mod" status that BF2142 is. BF2142 was released way too early and should have been put thru more testing.

BF2142 is nothing but a mere "very modified" BF2 code. Same problems, glitches and BS has cropped up yet again in this all new built from the ground up title. Same ole crap has shown itself now and the numerous forums/posts about these problems proves this fact. Basically BF2142 is nothing but a re-skinned BF2. New player skins and objects/models. Other than that its the same old BF2 game.

If you had something constructive going on like a mod or actually owned bf2142 you might have a leg to stand on. Instead your just on the sideline of game your not involved in, bitchin.

Name your maps, mods or what ever you have done for what ever community.

[dickybird]

the tard needs to realise that any game developer or publisher that puts adware in a game without giving the user of that game the ability to opt out is breaking the law this is because the comertial relationship clause only covers email. UK ICO regualtions 22 and 23 regulations for electronic advertising which is all forms of advertising over the internet are breached. Remember that IGN has offices in london so they as the people that provide the adverts can be done.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/what_we_cover/privacy_and_electronic_communications/the_basics.aspx

All it takes is for a user that is a UK resident to send an email to the developer or publisher's customer support. Remember to save a copy of the email and screen shoot sending it for later reference in the case of BF2142 scan in the outer sleve of the box to show that there was no prior notice that this will be ingame at the time of purchase. Remember that the Electronic advertising regulations cover "email, text (SMS) and any other form of unsolicited electronic message." This means that ingame ads are covered and as there are no options not to have the adverts ingame. Also as the advertising so far had not been other games but computer hardware which is not a "similar product" that it is required to be under UK law.

As we all know the publishers would not want other publishers games to be advertised in their games so this will hopefully cause them to stop this idiotic practise in its tracks.

[Wizz]

Today, 12:00 AM
http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/image.php?u=1866&dateline=1149715155 (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/image.php?u=1866&dateline=1149715155)

Wizard220 (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/member.php?u=1866) http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_50139", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 132
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This list contains all Valve-Anti-Cheat (VAC) bans reported from HLstatsX clients to our masterserver.

http://www.hlstatsx.com/vacbans/?HLs...utton=+Filter+ (http://www.hlstatsx.com/vacbans/?HLstatsX=44f1411db314725b75948d655536c93a&banlist_order=real_last_event&banlist_order_type=desc&banlist_filter=sub&banlist_filter_type=last_name&filter_button=+Filter+)

2 Sublime STEAM_0:1:9158192 1 1 Wed, 26. Jul 2006 01:00:19

3 |^SublimE^| STEAM_0:0:7226578 3 5 Fri, 14. Jul 2006 23:57:09

16 sublime.truth STEAM_0:1:3821697 1 1 Thu, 24. Nov 2005 19:06:15

[Mike Nomad]

From Dirtynap @ FPS,

If sublime is who I think he is, then he is highly respectable and I will stand by that. That is if he is whom I think he is, gievn his past comments which only a few would understand.

The chances of him getting banned are the same as Mike, Wizz, or even Rudeog himself getting banned or me for that matter. The guy is a stand up guy. The name is not important here. What he has to said is, however the way he went about it was poor.

Anyway life is life and we live as best we can. Life is too short and goes by too fast to wory about things such as this. EA have done what they have done and you either choose to live with it or fit it. I respect both points of view. Go for it all of you and enjoy your path.

Please don't get personal about it its the way forward its teh way backward.

Happy New Years, and if any wants an easy kill just look for me in any of the games you play I play um all and I suck, and I'm proud of it.

P.S. I hate being knifed and I good at knifing back so be warned knife I'm hunt you down and stab you in teh back, not teh front but the back becuase that the crap players way.

[Mike Nomad]

The guy is a stand up guy. The name is not important here. What he has to said is, however the way he went about it was poor. :undecided


You said it all right there but ignored one thing, there is no way anyone can be a "stand up guy" and represent themselves in the manner in which sUBLIMe did so. I would never consider anyone making personal attacks and flame baiting a "stand up guy". In fact while "scratching" my head, I'd go so far as to encourage sUBLIMe's apology to the members of this forum to be forthcoming for having been such a negative distraction.

We are a community and as such, we wield a great deal of commentary power. When we are divided for whatever reasons, we lose and lose big. The serious problems of upholding security and privacy are tantamount to our very civil liberties. For if we lose one, we then face the strong possibility of losing all.

A strong intelligent debate would've fostered further constructive thought and fact research. Instead, it descended into to the depths of personal attack and innuendo. sUBLIMe, in his unique antagonistic and equally deleterious manner, destroyed the debate but could not and will not harm the truth of the matter.

[Wizz]

My reply:

Today, 04:16 PM
http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/image.php?u=1866&dateline=1149715155 (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/member.php?u=1866)Wizard220 (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/member.php?u=1866) http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_50148", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sUBLIMe http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50146#post50146)
I've simply stood up for myself and did not let you and wiz walk over me.

What a funny guy. Who was the one who flammed, baited and just out right called names. It wasnt Mike or myself. That distinction fell on you.

You like Dirtynap has a "invested" interest in all this. We at RGN dont. We are not tied to corps, bussiness or the likes. While I do see Dirtynaps points and do understand his position as a bussiness ( game server rentals ) he has spoken with "respect" and has put forth the facts as he see's it. He has NOT resorted to name calling and what not. My respects Dirtynap.

You tho started off blasting both barrles and called names.

Go read some of my posts in this thread. I did PUBLICLY post that I dont give a arse about the ads. I could care less to be honest. It was the way they are/were implimented into BF2142 that is the issue.

I have tried to return a open boxed set of BF2/BF2142 due to this issue and guess what. No can do, I can not return "OPENED" software boxes. Yes I have filed a complaint thru my States Attorney Generals office. Like I said its being LOOKED into. No where have I said a suit of any kind is opened or what ever.

BF2142 stats:

BF2142 has lost lots of players. I dont use gamespy due to its funkiness of reporting. I use this:

http://www.game-monitor.com/index.php (http://www.game-monitor.com/index.php)

I have been keeping up with BF2142 as well as CoD2 since day "1". What I see is a hugh decline in players and servera alike for BF2142. GS is reporting number 4 spot for it. Yea but in the week that BF2142 was FIRST released it was posed to take over from BF2 itself.

History, Counter Strike / Valve games has held the number 1 and 2 spots forever and I do mean forever. Guess what game took that over for a couple of days. Can you say BF2. Like I said, both BF2 and BF2142 had the golden chance to take it. But as we see it now that will never happen on a perm basis. Why, go take a look at all the problems, glitches and just out right ignoring the players when it comes to reporting problems. Plus the fact that Valve will NEVER ram down your throats in a sneeky and vicious manner ADWARE/SPYWARE/MAILWARE and NOT give you a choice. EA tho wants only one thing, MONEY and thats all. The rest, screw you when it comes to support or getting help.

EA needs to learn some valuable bussiness practices from Valve. Of all the game devs/publishers, Valve is the ONLY one who updates and informs its users on aregular and continues basis. Cant say that for EA can you.

MOH:Airborne will be released next year or 2008. I dont know the about time frame but it will be interesting to see if this Adware crap is in it.

We at RGN are not the only ones who are pissed at this adware crap. Alot is pissed off on "HOW" EA implimented it. Yet you sit here defending them and flame, call names and just out right belittle us just because we post FACTS which has been verified and true. When you had no come back with facts you resorted to name calling and just being a arse.

Also do your frigging homework on IGA, the so called adware people/company that EA hired to do this crap in BF2142. Its well known FACT that they do infact "harvest" data/info from peoples machines. Why do you think that they are LOCATED "OUTSIDE" the USA.

Ever wonder why on the reasons that EA picked IGA, IGA can not be touched by US law or its courts. Go figure that EA would get a OUTSIDE company to do its dirty work. Washed their hands of this mess is what they did. If EA was legit to begin with they would have picked a USA company that is regulated and can be held accountable for its actions/means/methods of adware in games. As it stands now the US cant do crap to IGA or EA to be frank. The one who is doing the actual ads resides OUTSIDE the USA and is so reg'd as being just that a outside company.

Here is the REAL domain that IGA belongs to.

NeoTrace Pro was used as well as godaddy.com. IGA owns both the .com and .net addys.

Domain: kundenserver.de

domain: IGAWORLDWIDE.COM
created: 11-May-2005
last-changed: 03-Nov-2006
registration-expiration: 11-May-2007

nserver: ns43.1und1.de
nserver: ns44.1und1.de

status: CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname: Christian-Alexander
registrant-lastname: Vry
registrant-organization: IGA WORLDWIDE Ltd.
registrant-street1: Oranienburger Str. 86a
registrant-pcode: 10178
registrant-city: Berlin
registrant-ccode: DE
registrant-phone: +49.302008900
registrant-fax: +49.3020089029
registrant-email: srunge@igaww.com (srunge@igaww.com)

admin-c-firstname: Christian-Alexander
admin-c-lastname: Vry
admin-c-organization: IGA WORLDWIDE Ltd.
admin-c-street1: Oranienburger Str. 86a
admin-c-pcode: 10178
admin-c-city: Berlin
admin-c-ccode: DE
admin-c-phone: +49.302008900
admin-c-fax: +49.3020089029
admin-c-email: srunge@igaww.com (srunge@igaww.com)

tech-c-firstname: Hostmaster
tech-c-lastname: EINSUNDEINS
tech-c-organization: 1&1 Internet AG
tech-c-street1: Elgendorfer Strasse 57
tech-c-pcode: 56410
tech-c-city: Montabaur
tech-c-ccode: DE
tech-c-phone: +49.1805006480
tech-c-fax: +49.1805001372
tech-c-email: hostmaster@1und1.com (hostmaster@1und1.com)

bill-c-firstname: Hostmaster
bill-c-lastname: EINSUNDEINS
bill-c-organization: 1&1 Internet AG
bill-c-street1: Elgendorfer Strasse 57
bill-c-pcode: 56410
bill-c-city: Montabaur
bill-c-ccode: DE
bill-c-phone: +49.1805006480
bill-c-fax: +49.1805001372
bill-c-email: hostmaster@1und1.com (hostmaster@1und1.com)

EDIT:

IGA has yet to come forward with what is actually being harvested. Not in paper sence. They have not proved the actual script/program documentation or its means/methods of getting said info. If I'm not mistaken, it was a simple 1 minute interview that they IGA did say what was harvested. Yet no actual docs to back that up was ever proved. It was just a couple of lines of chat ( interview ). In order to get the proper ads your IP is infact harvested. It is the IP that determines on what ads you get. Never the less will IGA ever produce the code/programs it uses for ingame ads. I dont ever see that happening.

EDIT 2:

Like I said Sublime, I dont care about the ads. it was the method on how EA implented it. That is the issue and another issue is the fact that IGA has yet to produce its methods and EA is being tight lipped about it also. Nothing on paper to show with proof on what is actually happening when IGA phones home and what info is being passed to them.

[dickybird]

Wiz you'll love this. IGA can be persued on this by the EU on behalf of the US due to an agreement that is included in the same EU legislaton that forced the regulations on the UK and the rest of the EU.

[Mike Nomad]

sUBLIMe...... Josh, StickyGreen, I know exactly who you are... or shuld I say what you are.... you are a PHONY! This charade has gone on far enough. I don't know what your true reason for all this garbage is... other than perhaps blind gamer loyalty. The head games must stop. You know me long enough and well enough to know I have no alterior motivation. My sole purpose is to protect our rights to privacy and security.

I am surprised and disheartened to discover who you are. In particular, why you chose to hide behind an unknown name and then take me to task. But in thinking back through the years, I now know exactly where we stand as far as you and I are concerned. You have after all this time, finally shown your true colors. (Scratch, et al is not part of this clown sUBLIMe's scam)

StickyGreen
$tΩkýG®èèñ
Josh
Robert
sUBLIMeThese are the fool's various nics

[Wizz]

I am surprised and disheartened to discover who you are. In particular, why you chose to hide behind an unknown name and then take me to task. But in thinking back through the years, I now know exactly where we stand as far as you and I are concerned. You have after all this time, finally shown your true colors. (Scratch, et al is not part of this clown sUBLIMe's scam)

StickyGreen
Josh
Robert
sUBLIMeThese are the fool's various nics


Read the bolded part. Who does that remind you of. Can you say Tally aka many nics.

[Mike Nomad]

Read the bolded part. Who does that remind you of. Can you say Tally aka many nics.



Yeah, StickyGreen ain't no Tally.... He's just a phony.

[Wizz]

He deff sure isnt Tally. Just had to compare him to Tally since he loves to use/hide behind "Many Nics".

[Mike Nomad]

He's a stubborn fool.....

Strike 3, your out!

Mike who I am isn't what this thread is about or important. Quit trying to discredit me with this smear campaign. I find it hilarious that's what your focus is on. Im not a flamer/hacker or someone you know. It does seem you owe someone an apology though. :p Seems YOUR true color's are showing. I just browse the front page of this site for news updates and decided to speak up. We've never talked before.

Nice smokescreen..... NOT! You are BAGGED! End of story.... Old "Chris" Kringle told me not to "Lynch" you. So its all over.

[Wizz]

Today, 10:42 PM
sUBLIMe (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/member.php?u=9257) http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_50154", true);
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 25


The only Kris Kringle I know is Santa.

How much time have you spent playing matlock trying to figure me out. It wasn't a big deal but now it's became one.

Since you are still on witch hunt I will tell you who I am. Wait I'll give it a day or two then I'll drop an url. The suspense seems to be killing you.



LOL, like Mike said, nice smoke screen. And yes all those nic's are involved with what you have said, UT2k4. Also I searched using your login here "Scratch" by the IP and your gmail addy, d0p3y2k4 [at] gmail.com.

d0p3y2k4 is linked to all the others. Late 2005 you did a name change. You sure love to use many nics. In the 7 years that I have been active in "actual" online gaming I have only used 2, Wizard220 and Wizz. You tho have been very busy hiding like a pussy and not steppig up like a man and use your real nic. Me I stand up using my real nic and that says way more than what I can of you.

And yes man I have also made public apologies like a man and sure have admitted to my faults/mistakes. Can we say the same of you ?, I think not.

You remind me of a E-Thug wannabe. All this could have been avoided, all you had to do is fight facts with facts and use your real nic and not try to hide. Yet you choise to use name calling, flaming and out right flame bait and false nic to try to get your point across.

If you wanted to do battle then bring it here under your real nic and not some false BS nics.

Josh
Robert
StickyGreen
$tΩkýG®èèñ
sUBLIMe

All of those nics are so linked and they all go back to UT2K4. Which is what you were so involved with by your own admission. That is when you read what I said ""asshat from IWN".

[Mike Nomad]

Posted to sUBLIMe at FPS...


Maybe...... I should ask "Chris" "Lynch" all about you.

[StickyGreen]

Here's my Ip and something to put in your pipe and smoke.

Just to prove you guy's can be wrong and that your narrow minded. Here's my IP. I hate seeing you hang an innocent man. This "scratch" has done nothing wrong except sign up at the all might raiders forum.


http://fpscops.com/photo/145983a6943c79.jpg

My name is Josh and I run fpscops.com. My ingame tag is stickygreen and sublime. Depending on what mood Im in. When you play for fun names mean nothing.

[StickyGreen]

Im not lashing out just confiriming my identity. Mike has accused me of being 4 different people and Im just proving him wrong. Im the one that has struck his nerve.

To prove Im who I say:

http://fpscops.com/mike_nomad/Matlock.jpg

[Mike Nomad]

From FPS....

Just to show that you can be wrong Mike_Nomad my name is Josh. I run fpscops.com in my spare time at night, when Im not spending time with my family.

I play under the names Sublime and Stickygreen. Im not in a clan and honestly I use one when Im drunk and one when Im sober.

You have succesfully smoked the bear out of the cave.:D

Well let's see,

We have the names you now "admit" to:

Josh
Robert
sUBLIMe
$tΩkýG®èèñ
StickyGreenI could care less who you are now. Next you'll tell us you are someone or something else again. You have no idea how many people became involved in this fiasco because of your tirades and attacks. You have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have little or no facts to back up your ridiculous assertions. You made your position very clear by all your personal attacks and innuendo.

You've been antagonistic and a belligerent from the very beginning. I presented FACTS and FIGURES. You chose to ignore them and instead, attacked Wizz and I. As far as I am concerned, you've destroyed this debate and any scintilla of credibility you had.

In closing, this matter has gone on far enough. You've managed to not only destroy the debate, you've hijacked the topic with your "headgames". Obviously, you've accomplished your goals. This matter is closed as far as I am concerned.

_______________

PS; This guy set out to topple the facts and figures presented against EA and BF2142's embedded SPYWARE/ADWARE/MALWARE and when he saw he could not bluster his way through the facts and figures thus presented, he resorted to personal attacks against Wizz and I. So far, everything about this person has been double talk... many nicknames and more double talk. Obviously, he's a registered user here but he chose to trash up the topic in RudeDog's forums FPS Admin. That was his first major blunder. The rest of his blunders have been presented by him and are fairly obvious already. I am truly done with this matter. He is so close to a vacation in RGN (which he has also mocked) that is would be a wise and prudent thing if either offered an apology to all concernd or kept his mouth shut and did not "stir the pot" further.

[Wizz]

StickyGreen aka Josh aka Sublime aka Robert aka Many Nics

If you were on the up and up and what you say you were you wouldn't have resorted to using many "false" nics.

Again you're a phony a fake and a scammer. If you wasn't then you would have stood up using your REAL NIC instead of hiding like you do best.

You have really blew it by doing so. Frankly I don't care on who you are or what ever. But for you use use so many nics and possibly "framing" a innocent online gamer by your actions says volumes. What does that say about you, that you're a phony and a fake.

Believe me, I did some looking up on you and I find it odd that you claim to be so into online gaming for what 9 years yet your only 19 years old. That would have made you 10 when you got so involved and making maps and so forth for UT2K4. As you so posted over at FPSADMIN. Yea right, you're a phony.

So what names should we call you by now.

Stickygreen
$tΩkýG®èèñ
sUBLIMe
Josh
Robert

So what is it man. Time to stand up and be honest now. And oh nice PROXY host you use. Like Wolverine said, I can "pretend" to be whomever and say I run whatever. I can be in China and run this site and claim to live here. Damn man, be frigging honest for a change.

Dirtynap said that you're a stand up guy, Well I have to disagree on that one. A stand up guy wouldn't have done what you did. He would have stood on his OWN 2 feet and be counted like a man with his real nic. Not using false ones and yet frame or attempt to frame an innocent gamer.

[StickyGreen]

You cannot claim "Couragous COMMUNITY Action" when you don't listen to individuals in the community.

Hope you all have a Happy New Year.

[Wizz]

StickyGreen aka Josh aka Sublime aka Robert aka Many Nics

If you were on the up and up and what you say you were you wouldnt have resorted to using many "false" nics.

Again your a phoney a fake and a scammer. If you wasnt then you would have stood up using your REAL NIC instead of hiding like you do best.

You have really blew it by doing so. Frankly I dont care on who you are or what ever. But for you use use so many nics and possibily "framing" a innocent online gamer by your actions says volumes. What does that say about you, that your a phoney and a fake.

Believe me I did some looking up on you and I find it odd that you claim to be so into online gaming for what 9 years yet your only 19 years old. That would have made you 10 when you got so involved and making maps and so forth for UT2K4. As you so posted over at fpsadmin. Yea right, your a phoney.

So what names should we call you by now.

Stickygreen
$tΩkýG®èèñ
sUBLIMe
Josh
Robert

So what is it man. Time to stand up and be honest now. And oh nice PROXY host you use. Like Wolvering said, I can "pretend" to be who ever and say I run what ever. I can be in China and run this site and claim to live here. Damn man, be frigging honest for a change.

Dirtynap said that your a standup guy, Well I have to dissagree on that one. A standup guy wouldnt have done what you did. He would have stood on his OWN 2 feet and be counted like a man with his real nic. Not using false ones and yet frame or attempt to frame a innocent gamer.


Like I posted before so I will not type it all over. And yes you have used so many false nics and hid behind them. Why didnt you just stand up like a man with your real nic. I told you on day one of this debate to take it over here. You didnt, you hid behind fpsadmin site and posted utter trash. Yet you still refused to take it over here till it was too late.

Scammer and a phoney period. Stand up like a damn man and be counted.

[StickyGreen]

R O F L C Op T E R

[Mike Nomad]

You cannot claim "Couragous COMMUNITY Action" when you don't listen to individuals in the community.

Hope you all have a Happy New Year.

Very cute, on one hand you throw an insult and the other a Happy New Year Wish? You are indeed on very thin ice in this forum. Govern yourself accordingly.

Let's see you've managed to ridicule Me, Wizard and now CCA which involves many good people.

What is your problem?

We pointed to the obvious problems with BF2142 and how the in-game advertising works and you went absolutely ballistic in Rudedog's forums. You became a raving, foaming at the mouth maniac, making personal attacks. Personal attacks bacause you obviously had no real and genuine facts to use. Now, you are here doing so. You are very close to being "gone".

Be advised, cease your current offensive activities forthwith if you care to have further access to this forum. Your current mode of behavior will not be tolerated.

[Mike Nomad]

Im not lashing out just confiriming my identity. Mike has accused me of being 4 different people and Im just proving him wrong. Im the one that has struck his nerve.

To prove Im who I say:

http://fpscops.com

What the hell is the difference???? You are still a phony!! You could have even adopted this indicated forum as your own and it not be true. You've hid behind so much its impossible to know when you are being truthful and when you are not!

In any case, if you are "Josh" then matter has become seriously worse. You trashed Rudedog's forum and now you are attempting to do the same here. I am beginning to believe you are worse than any fanboi for BF2142 could ever be!! Especially since you allege that you run a forum!! You of all people "should" know what decorum and mutual respect is all about.

Since you claim you are operating and admining a forum, this makes your infractions 1000x worse because you should know better!

Sad to say, but if you keep up your personal attacks and scam job, you will be the first alleged fellow forum operator/admin dumped from here!!! Wake up and realize we are serious, presented serious and true facts about Active Advertising/User Abuse and especially will not tolerate personal attacks regardless from whom they come. You will be banned if it continues.

You owe an apology to Rudedog's Forum members and the members here for having to put up with your distruptive, diversionary tactics to derail and hijack the BF2142 In-Game Advertising Topic.

[OneShot]

WOW!!! I had no idea EA Games would resort to this kind of crap. I was even contemplating buying the BF latest edition. Now after reading the threads posted here, I would not install it on any of my machines even if it was given to me for free! I also agree with principles of personal and computing privacy and am vigorously opposed to any Malware, Adware or other types of spyware of any type, period!! Thanks to all those who have posted threads here on this forum, good job Mike, Whizz and the other RGN members . OneShot