Narva-17March & Muddy Tigers

[Mike Nomad]

From ViViD:

Well for those that have been waiting, wait no more <wink>

What is MuddyTigers, well this is the name for the fictional tanks galore map, a bit of a spin on Tigers in the Mud. Read the followup post to this.

Download http://www.germansoldiers.net/pafile...ion=file&id=78 (http://www.germansoldiers.net/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=78)

(Thanks again to GS for use of there download space)

Changelog:

Farmhouse:
Sandbagged Windows
AmmoCrate added in Clothes Line Area
5 Panzerfausts added in Barn
Barn Doorway made larger
Sandbags to the side of house and removed fence

Ruins B:
Timber in the bathtub to get out, if stuck
Panzerfaust box changed to non snow version
Ammo crate added to back of ruins

Ruins A:
Ammocrate moved to stop hole in the floor
Timber plank on fence for T-34 load up if they choose

Axis Spawn:
Only allowed to have Two Tiger crewmen. (stop griefing to get into the tiger)
Mine protection added in final Axis spawn
Great Coats for Germans
Ammo zone for Tiger tank at spawn

Allied Spawn:
Lessened the slope in T34 spawn


Others:
Description of battle is included, plus tips
Terrain enhancements and more ground divets
Barrage is better
Shrubs now able to drive over
Binoculars for Mgers (simulate a MG spotter)
Ammocrates now give out ammo at a less rate. (once every 3 minutes)
Tiger is less prone to HE Damage
Finally a new awesome skin for the Tiger created by BrausePaul from German Soldiers.



Muddy Tigers


http://www.germansoldiers.net/pafile...ion=file&id=79 (http://www.germansoldiers.net/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=79)

Changelog: from Narva17

Well this is a tank heavy map but if you wish to play infantry all the classes are still there.

Axis Tank Load Out:
3 Tigers
4 PIVH
3 Stug

Allied Tank Load Out:
1 IS2
3 T34/85
4 T34/76
1 SU76
1 T60

Carriers now at second allied spawn
Unlimited tanks
25 minutes
PTRD soldier for allies
Objectives zones are slower to cap but bigger in area size.
Two Panzerfausts are respawnable every 60 secs
German spawn time reduced to 20 secs.

[ViViD]

Mike,

What is the load out like for Muddy Tigers - Balanced or too hard for either side?

I notice on a server which is 1/2 filled to 3/4 filled russians easily win and on a full server the germans tend to win more often then not.

Any thoughts or its just right?

Do you know that guy who wanted to do those infantry skins, if so he can leave a post here to get in touch with me.

[Mike Nomad]

Mike,

What is the load out like for Muddy Tigers - Balanced or too hard for either side?

I notice on a server which is 1/2 filled to 3/4 filled russians easily win and on a full server the germans tend to win more often then not.

Any thoughts or its just right?

Do you know that guy who wanted to do those infantry skins, if so he can leave a post here to get in touch with me.

The loadout is fine....

Yes, I know the fellow with the skins. He told me today he emailed the links to the pics to you. If for some reason they go astray, let me know and I'll get them from him and then to you.

[Mike Nomad]

On New Year's Day... the following discussion about Muddy Tigers was continued in the RO Forums;

I'm offering my opinion on the map. Plain and simple.
Maybe your experiences differed, but maybe you've just played with teams of a much higher calibre.


Exactly and quite possible.... try the map on different servers. Try our Server; RGN... We had some memorable battles with Muddy Tigers and we expect many, many more. Fantastic battles to be exact. Most of which the Russians either won or hammered the Germans hard to the very bitter end.

Then of course, we had the objectives junkies that simply swarmed the objectives seemingly all at once and rapidly capped them all. You are going to find all kinds playing the map.

The best in my opinion, are the guys who enjoy the map for the battle... not battle for the map.

[Mike Nomad]

Then Solo came back with this rather long-winded missive detailing his likes ( a few) and dislikes (many).

I'll try the map out on RGN (I've been meaning to stop by there anyway) at some point, but I still think that there are way more advantages for the Germans than for the Russians.

Great!! I'd be overjoyed to show you the ropes in Muddy Tigers, I'll be the Russian Tanker... you be a (favored) German Tanker. We'll see who constantly wins.

Here's my point, and it's a general issue I have with map design in any games like this (BF1942, FH, BF2, etc.). Assuming teams of roughly equal skill level, there should not be any clear advantage to either team -- the presence of such an advantage implies that the map lacks balance.

Who cares about mapping principles?? While principles might be a foundational part of a map, they are not paramount to a successful map. We all care about a map's attributes;

playability
accuracy
realism
and of course, the fun factor of a map.I want nothing to do with pre-determined outcome maps or maps that have built-in bias. Those maps will NEVER make it into our rotation.

Even unbalanced maps can be won by the other team. I've seen the Germans win multiple times on Tula Outskirts. I still think that map is simply an opportunity for Russians to practice long-range riflery skills, though. The point isn't CAN the other team win, it's more a question of what's required for them to do so.

More of the oh nooooooo, the Russians are not being treated fairly nonsense. We've played Muddy Tigers better than 30 times with an average of 10 players per side and each session produces fairly even wins. Perhaps you are playing it with new players who haven't yet learned to really play RO.

If one team gets to sit back, counting flowers on the wall, smoking cigarettes, and watching Captain Kangaroo, while the other team needs to be an absolutely crackerjack unit with good communication, coordination, and a clear battle plan, that's an unbalanced map. Generally speaking, it ain't much fun to play a map like that, certainly not from the losing side.

Now, you've truly lost it!.... GET REAL! Or, buy a bale of crying towels!! :d

Personally, I find it boring to play on the winning side, too in that situation. I hate playing a round that's a blowout for either side. I prefer a much closer contest. You know, like those rounds of Basovka where the Germans manage to cap the final position with 10 seconds left on the clock. THAT's a good round and it's a good map. I do find the balance precarious, but that's true of a lot of maps (IE: if you have a crappy squad leader who took the position for the gun, not for the smoke grenades to provide cover for his team).

Is there anything about either the game or the maps that you do enjoy?? They're either boring, unfair, uneven unbalanced or have "crappy" players. Damn, you sound like a meandering moaner and groaner hunting for things to carry on about. Don't play if it BOTHERS you this much. Go find PACMAN and moan to him! :confused:

With Muddy Tigers, right now, the balance is definitely in favor of the Germans. They have the following advantages:

- Position. All their defensive postures are covered. You can easily park your tank behind a building, in the trees, etc. where you present a minimal target, but can snipe away. Plus, you're a stationary gun platform while the Russians have to keep moving and pray their armor protects them.

The Russians are able to use the very same cover as the Germans. Again, join us in our server and see how real players do it to it.

- Equipment. At the ranges they're operating, the German tanks are, on the whole, superior. Even a Stug III is a match for the T34/76s. While the '85s and IS2 are a match for the Tigers and superior to the Pz IVs and Stug IIIs, they are ONLY a match for the Tigers, of which there are, I believe, three.

Have you ever really spent more than the time it takes to play 5 games of Muddy Tigers?? You really do not know what you are talking about.

- Prepared defenses. The Ruins A and B offer plenty of cover for German troops. With no less than four respawning Panzerfausts, you can have a squad of five (Squad Leader, MG, 2x rifle, 1x SMG), all with multiple panzerfausts. They are hiding behind sandbags, standing in tiny windows that protect them but let them fire out. They can hold of infantry and armor with ease.

Again.... the same cover and protections are available to the Russians. The more I read of your complaints.... the more I'm convinced you should take up knitting. Forget FPS games... you want them to win themselves for you.

- Recapturable objectives. Even assuming the Russians gain ground, they can lose it. The Russians have to choose to spread their forces even thinner and have a few people trying to root out the odd German strike team, or pray that they can advance quickly enough to take A and B. I'm not even sure if A and B lock after you've taken both, for that matter. My sense is that they don't, so the Russian rear is always exposed.

Oh please, save us from your constant moaning and groaning about helping the Russians win by adding bias and advantage to the map for the Russians. Face it, you are a lousy player and refuse to enhance your skills with practice. Instead you want the maps to do the battle for you. Knitting, yeah!! that's the ticket for you, knitting.

The Russians have no real advantages. They have to cover tons of open, heaved ground which means they can't fire back on the move and expect to hit anything. They have weaker tanks for the existing engagement ranges, whose one advantage -- speed -- is negated by the fact that they have to approach laterally and expose a wide side shot, or approach head on and basically beg for a one-shot kill. They also have no anti-armor troops worth a damn. As I said, even though it's overpowerd in the game, the PTRD is a joke on this map and without cover, Combat Engineers are pointless too.

Baloney!! The Russians have the MAJOR advantage of having their Tanks all blend in with the trees and darker backgrounds. Of course, you wouldn't realize that as you are far too busy trying to find fault with the map instead of playing it. As for anti-armor troops the Russians can use the 'Faust's just as well as the Germans can... try it, you'll see. Ya know what's really pointless? YOU!! Join us on our server - let us show you how the maps works.. if you can handle the real deal.

If you honestly feel the Germans have a decided advantage, You be a German and I'll be a Russian.. I'll kick your butt from one end of the map to the other... then you can tell me all about how the Germans have a built-in advantage.

Honestly, I think you can still keep the flavor of the map the same, but give the Russians more of a chance. The simple solution to this is to play with reinforcements and time. Give the Russians the manpower and the time to wear the Germans down, and you remove the need for them to throw themselves heedlessly into the German defenses. With more time, the Russians could employ leapfrog tactics without having to think "HOLY CRAP!! WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!! WE HAVE TO ALL CHARGE NOW!!" Likewise, with a clear reinforcement advantage, the challenge would be for the German team to be both skilled in gunnery and positioning, and conscious enough to manage their own limited resources -- something which would be historically accurate as well. The Germans would have to decide clearly how hard of a defense to put up at Ruins A (the more exposed position) and how soon to abandon or defend Ruins B.

You are becoming redundant... Join us and show us how the Germans have such an over whelming advantage. PROVE IT TO US!

Believe me, I see the potential for this map to be every bit as good of a combined arms map as Berezina. But as it stands, there's just too many obstacles facing the Russian team, assuming roughly equal skill levels of the teams, and ESPECIALLY on pub servers in pickup games. Which, I believe, is the majority of people playing RO out there -- pub servers, pickup games, no organized teams. Server regulars are the exception, not the rule. If you've got 'em, then yeah, you stand a chance of winning. But right now, a Russian "victory" is simply making defeat more costly for the Germans than they'd have wanted it.

Believe you?? I have all to do to read this missive. I'm laughing so hard its bringing tears to my eyes!! Believe you??? Not a chance! That last paragraph of yours was pure BS.... you want the map changed to give the Russians a decided advantage.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'll agree with you if you can whip me continually as I play a Russian and you play as a German. Until then, you have no right to loudly proclaim the map is decidedly favored for the Germans. It is simply not true.

I challenge you to PROVE YOUR CLAIMS!! I'll be Russian and you be German. No Stand-In players either!! You be you and I'll be me. No Ringers or Straw men. Better yet, get a stand-in if you need one... get the best you can find to play a German. I'll still be me, as a Russian.

SHOW ME! :p


Think he'll take up the challenge?? I don't think so.... this guy, to me, is all talk and no walk.
The "Rand McNally" of Custom Maps. :d