Mike Nomad
11-16-2006, 08:36 AM
Description:
I have been working with a map for a while now and now that the mapping contest deadline is coming closer I wanted to release the first version of it.
So here it is: RO-Manikkala_beta1
The map is a combined arms map with two tanks for both side. The Axis team will be defending 3 objectives. There are tank barricades, that can be destroyed by engineers, in the firs objective to make the Soviet assault a little bit more tricky.
The map is based on a large battle fought in Tali-Ihantala area in Karelian isthmus on 6.25.1944-7.11.1944. In reality the battle was mainly fought between Finnish and Soviets (there were some Germans taking part too, mainly air support) but here the Axis team have to go as Finns.
The map has not been tested with large number of human players so gameplay is something I would want to try out and fine tune in the future. Also in future versions I will make some optimizations to the map and maybe add artillery support once I see how the gameplay turns out to be.
All comments and criticism is appreciated as I will continue to develop this map further.
I certainly hope this author is listening. I've made various observations and a number of suggestions in the RO Beta Custom Map forums only to be replied to by a number of people. But not the author.
It seems they are pro-Finnish enthusiasts. That's fine by me.. but I feel they are sacrificing a map with great potential by insisting upon "making believe" the German side is Finnish and "making believe" they are using Finnish weaponry and/or wanting to use "captured" Soviet armor for use by the Finns/Germans.
My first comment:
After having played a few rounds... I'd say its a very nice map but the Stug is not really a good match .... I'd like to suggest a Panzer III and an early Panzer IV instead of the two Stugs....
The KV1 is getting too many one shot kills on the Stug.
Otherwise, its a nice map that begs for a big crowd. Nicely done and plenty of eye candy. FPS are fine too btw.
My second comment was brought about by an impassioned plea by Sander to make certain the map was made to be Finnish vs Russian altogether:
Great idea (and looks) to make an Finnish map, I am a great fan of the war between Russia and Finland.
The germans acting as finnish soldiers is pretty good because they looked the same. The only differance were the weapons but you could make this better by changing the German weapons for the Russian ones. The PPD-40 is almost the same as the Suomi SMG, and they used all kinds of russian weapons like the Moisin Nagant 1891/30, that LMG (I forgot the name), panzerfaust etc (lot of captured weapons). This is posible, I've seen it in the custom map Mga where the germans had PPSH's. You could do it like this (ofcourse change the names to the Finnish ones, ask Moz (Blackday) how to do this):
squad leader - PPD-40 + Luger + Steelhandgranade
soldier - Moisin Nagant 1891 + Steelhandgranade
assault soldier - PPD-40 + Steelhandgranade
PAK soldat - PPD-40 or Moisin Nagant 1891 + Steelhandgranade + Panzerfaust
Pioneer - PPD-40 or Moisin Nagant 1891 + satchel
Panzercommander - PPD-40
Panzercrew - Luger
And maybe add an sniper, they had the best snipers.
You could use -next to the StuG- captured russian vehicles for the Finns, most of their tanks were Russian. (dont use the Panzer III/IV!)
With this changes you've brought one whole new army to RO!
Me likes you
EDIT: I've just played it, that town looks really good, nice detail like the house with an big hole. The only thing I disliked was the long walk to the objects, maybe you can change this so the first time people spawn is in the defencewall, this way it is like there is already an force in the trenches. (more maps had this, though I forgot which ones).
______________
To which I replied..
Don't use the P3 or early P4?!? Cool, if not the P3 and P4. What then???
Also, the distance view via the stug's cannon sight goes blurry.
Frankly speaking.... This map needs better tanks for the Finns/Germans and armament re-supply for both sides. We found no place to get more satchels or ammo.
The stugs are horrid. They are practically useless against the Russian Tanks. We played ten rounds this morning and the Russians won all ten. We even made the sides lopsided against the Russians and they still won!
I can see this map going nowhere with the current armaments for the Finns/Germans. The map is in severe need of balance for true playability. Other than that... its a nice looking map.
_____________
I went on to illustrate that; We don't have Finnish uniforms etc.. nor are we able to produce a plethora of captured Russian Tanks and weapons to use now do we??? Or, are you saying we should use "captured" Russian Tanks and weapons with the Russian markings on them??? TK heaven is right around the corner.
All I asked for is balance and a minor glitch fix. If the map is not balanced properly, it will go nowhere. As it stands now, the Germans are at a total disadvantage. There is no debating this fact. The mapper asked for input. Thus, my posts.
_____________________
At this point, I was treated to a number of "historically accurate" links depicting the Russo-Finnish War... and I offered this in reply:
OK, we played a few more rounds in this map....
More recommendations;
The Germans definitely need better tanks. The KV1's clobber the Stugs with one shot. I still feel the P3 and short barrel P4 are your best bet.
The foot soldiers need transportation. Such as the German Half-Track and the Personnel Carrier for the Allies.
Ammo Dumps for both sides are needed
It would also help if HE rounds could blow the barriers too.The map show a great deal of promise and the FPS as I said earlier, are excellent.
______________
Having gone through a number of pro Finnish - Russian War... posts from a few more enthusiasts ....... I replied with my last post on the matter:
Tanks that finns had in this area were mainly stugs that were bought from germany. Also few german PZ IV and captured russian tanks (T34's and ISU's took part in combat)
APC's were not used in these battles, to haste gameplay, only adding dynamic spawns would be the solution.
Stugs are great when used correctly, for an solo tanker its a dead end.
Categories: Continuation War (1941-1944) operations and battles
Battle of Tali-Ihantala
The Battle of Tali-Ihantala was a battle in World War II, part of the Continuation War between Finland and the Soviet Union. It lasted from June 25 to July 9, 1944 in the small area (100km²) between the Gulf of Viipuri and Vuoksi river, and ended with Soviet forces giving up, unsuccessfully, on their attempts to force their way through the Finnish defences.
Sorry, we had teams in the Stugs and still never won as Germans (Finns). The Stug, at this point in the map's design, does not stand a chance against a pair of KV1's. The full turret rotation of the KV1 is a huge advantage. The map needs perhaps, a P3 and a P4 for proper balance.
If we are not to see compensating revisions.. in the tank load outs to provide armor balance along with perhaps, the other suggestions to effect genuine balance, I fear we will not see this map in many rotation scripts as the outcome is far too heavily predetermined in favor of the Russians which is completely inaccurate.
But I fear that with the heavy lean toward "making believe" the German (Finnish) side is something the game is not designed to offer. Additionally, using weak or imaginary weaponry makes this map doomed unless its fully re-worked to bring about balanced game play.
Sadly, after the comments I received from our regulars, it may have to come out of rotation unless or until its more balanced. At this point, I feel I am beating a dead horse. I made my case and am done.
That's a shame because I like the map's layout and fully appreciate the amount of time and effort that went into the map's creation.
___________________
So, here we are a full 24 hours later and not one post from the map's author.
Instead, I was bombarded with all kinds of BS about why I should enjoy this map "making believe" I am a Finnish Soldier if I select to play a German. How weird is that?? Red Orchestra is designed and written to offer TWO sides German and Russian.
If they want Finnish soldiers and weapons in the RO framework, then let them make a full MOD to do so.... this is BS asking people to play "make believe".
I'll give it some time to see if the map's author reads and understands our position.. if it goes nowhere, I regret to say this map will not grace our servers.
I have been working with a map for a while now and now that the mapping contest deadline is coming closer I wanted to release the first version of it.
So here it is: RO-Manikkala_beta1
The map is a combined arms map with two tanks for both side. The Axis team will be defending 3 objectives. There are tank barricades, that can be destroyed by engineers, in the firs objective to make the Soviet assault a little bit more tricky.
The map is based on a large battle fought in Tali-Ihantala area in Karelian isthmus on 6.25.1944-7.11.1944. In reality the battle was mainly fought between Finnish and Soviets (there were some Germans taking part too, mainly air support) but here the Axis team have to go as Finns.
The map has not been tested with large number of human players so gameplay is something I would want to try out and fine tune in the future. Also in future versions I will make some optimizations to the map and maybe add artillery support once I see how the gameplay turns out to be.
All comments and criticism is appreciated as I will continue to develop this map further.
I certainly hope this author is listening. I've made various observations and a number of suggestions in the RO Beta Custom Map forums only to be replied to by a number of people. But not the author.
It seems they are pro-Finnish enthusiasts. That's fine by me.. but I feel they are sacrificing a map with great potential by insisting upon "making believe" the German side is Finnish and "making believe" they are using Finnish weaponry and/or wanting to use "captured" Soviet armor for use by the Finns/Germans.
My first comment:
After having played a few rounds... I'd say its a very nice map but the Stug is not really a good match .... I'd like to suggest a Panzer III and an early Panzer IV instead of the two Stugs....
The KV1 is getting too many one shot kills on the Stug.
Otherwise, its a nice map that begs for a big crowd. Nicely done and plenty of eye candy. FPS are fine too btw.
My second comment was brought about by an impassioned plea by Sander to make certain the map was made to be Finnish vs Russian altogether:
Great idea (and looks) to make an Finnish map, I am a great fan of the war between Russia and Finland.
The germans acting as finnish soldiers is pretty good because they looked the same. The only differance were the weapons but you could make this better by changing the German weapons for the Russian ones. The PPD-40 is almost the same as the Suomi SMG, and they used all kinds of russian weapons like the Moisin Nagant 1891/30, that LMG (I forgot the name), panzerfaust etc (lot of captured weapons). This is posible, I've seen it in the custom map Mga where the germans had PPSH's. You could do it like this (ofcourse change the names to the Finnish ones, ask Moz (Blackday) how to do this):
squad leader - PPD-40 + Luger + Steelhandgranade
soldier - Moisin Nagant 1891 + Steelhandgranade
assault soldier - PPD-40 + Steelhandgranade
PAK soldat - PPD-40 or Moisin Nagant 1891 + Steelhandgranade + Panzerfaust
Pioneer - PPD-40 or Moisin Nagant 1891 + satchel
Panzercommander - PPD-40
Panzercrew - Luger
And maybe add an sniper, they had the best snipers.
You could use -next to the StuG- captured russian vehicles for the Finns, most of their tanks were Russian. (dont use the Panzer III/IV!)
With this changes you've brought one whole new army to RO!
Me likes you
EDIT: I've just played it, that town looks really good, nice detail like the house with an big hole. The only thing I disliked was the long walk to the objects, maybe you can change this so the first time people spawn is in the defencewall, this way it is like there is already an force in the trenches. (more maps had this, though I forgot which ones).
______________
To which I replied..
Don't use the P3 or early P4?!? Cool, if not the P3 and P4. What then???
Also, the distance view via the stug's cannon sight goes blurry.
Frankly speaking.... This map needs better tanks for the Finns/Germans and armament re-supply for both sides. We found no place to get more satchels or ammo.
The stugs are horrid. They are practically useless against the Russian Tanks. We played ten rounds this morning and the Russians won all ten. We even made the sides lopsided against the Russians and they still won!
I can see this map going nowhere with the current armaments for the Finns/Germans. The map is in severe need of balance for true playability. Other than that... its a nice looking map.
_____________
I went on to illustrate that; We don't have Finnish uniforms etc.. nor are we able to produce a plethora of captured Russian Tanks and weapons to use now do we??? Or, are you saying we should use "captured" Russian Tanks and weapons with the Russian markings on them??? TK heaven is right around the corner.
All I asked for is balance and a minor glitch fix. If the map is not balanced properly, it will go nowhere. As it stands now, the Germans are at a total disadvantage. There is no debating this fact. The mapper asked for input. Thus, my posts.
_____________________
At this point, I was treated to a number of "historically accurate" links depicting the Russo-Finnish War... and I offered this in reply:
OK, we played a few more rounds in this map....
More recommendations;
The Germans definitely need better tanks. The KV1's clobber the Stugs with one shot. I still feel the P3 and short barrel P4 are your best bet.
The foot soldiers need transportation. Such as the German Half-Track and the Personnel Carrier for the Allies.
Ammo Dumps for both sides are needed
It would also help if HE rounds could blow the barriers too.The map show a great deal of promise and the FPS as I said earlier, are excellent.
______________
Having gone through a number of pro Finnish - Russian War... posts from a few more enthusiasts ....... I replied with my last post on the matter:
Tanks that finns had in this area were mainly stugs that were bought from germany. Also few german PZ IV and captured russian tanks (T34's and ISU's took part in combat)
APC's were not used in these battles, to haste gameplay, only adding dynamic spawns would be the solution.
Stugs are great when used correctly, for an solo tanker its a dead end.
Categories: Continuation War (1941-1944) operations and battles
Battle of Tali-Ihantala
The Battle of Tali-Ihantala was a battle in World War II, part of the Continuation War between Finland and the Soviet Union. It lasted from June 25 to July 9, 1944 in the small area (100km²) between the Gulf of Viipuri and Vuoksi river, and ended with Soviet forces giving up, unsuccessfully, on their attempts to force their way through the Finnish defences.
Sorry, we had teams in the Stugs and still never won as Germans (Finns). The Stug, at this point in the map's design, does not stand a chance against a pair of KV1's. The full turret rotation of the KV1 is a huge advantage. The map needs perhaps, a P3 and a P4 for proper balance.
If we are not to see compensating revisions.. in the tank load outs to provide armor balance along with perhaps, the other suggestions to effect genuine balance, I fear we will not see this map in many rotation scripts as the outcome is far too heavily predetermined in favor of the Russians which is completely inaccurate.
But I fear that with the heavy lean toward "making believe" the German (Finnish) side is something the game is not designed to offer. Additionally, using weak or imaginary weaponry makes this map doomed unless its fully re-worked to bring about balanced game play.
Sadly, after the comments I received from our regulars, it may have to come out of rotation unless or until its more balanced. At this point, I feel I am beating a dead horse. I made my case and am done.
That's a shame because I like the map's layout and fully appreciate the amount of time and effort that went into the map's creation.
___________________
So, here we are a full 24 hours later and not one post from the map's author.
Instead, I was bombarded with all kinds of BS about why I should enjoy this map "making believe" I am a Finnish Soldier if I select to play a German. How weird is that?? Red Orchestra is designed and written to offer TWO sides German and Russian.
If they want Finnish soldiers and weapons in the RO framework, then let them make a full MOD to do so.... this is BS asking people to play "make believe".
I'll give it some time to see if the map's author reads and understands our position.. if it goes nowhere, I regret to say this map will not grace our servers.