Creative Commits Suicide

[Mike Nomad]

Creative Commits Suicide!!

Creative Technologies.... makers of Sound Blaster, Audigy XFI Fatality Products has finally shown their true colors... they've been exposed.

Scores of irate users have flooded their forums with hateful posts because of Creative attacking Daniel K, a guy who fixed, Creative's lousy defective drivers.

FreedomFighter (http://fightingagainstsuppression.blogspot.com/) writes "Since the release of Windows Vista, Creative has promised their Sound Cards as being 'Vista Ready'. Unfortunately, as many unlucky customers did discover, this is not true. What the users actually found were buggy, feature crippled drivers. Creative insisted that features such as Decoding of Dolby® Digital and DTS(TM) signals and DVD-Audio which worked fine in WinXP, would not work on windows Vista. With Creative releasing less than one new driver a year, things seemed bleak. Fortunately, a talented user, Daniel_K, was recently able to 'fix' many of the drivers, enabling the incompatible features and also fixing many bugs. Just today Creative has decided to put a stop to this (http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332). They removed all links to his modified drivers, and banned several users who were posting links to the now banned drivers."

SOURCE (http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/29/046201) READ MORE (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1290565)

__________

The tragedy is that Creative is obviously faster at "protecting" their technologies and intellectual properties than providing improved drivers and software for their users/consumers. Creative seemingly crippled and ruined the Audigy/Live! (Emu10kx) and the Audigy LS/SE/Value/Live!24-bit (P17) drivers for Windows Vista. This apparently offers proof that Creative could care less about what their users/consumers and potential customers think of them and their product support.

If anyone has the drivers for both the XFI & Audigy for XP Pro and Vista by Daniel K, please PM me.

[zeroy]

Read the all thread just the other day, goes on for over 23 pages. How wrong and silly can one be to go and send such threatning letters to probably the most helpful guy on those creative forums?

They get what they deserve :wink1:

[PizzaTheHut]

Read the all thread just the other day, goes on for over 23 pages. How wrong and silly can one be to go and send such threatning letters to probably the most helpful guy on those creative forums?

They get what they deserve :wink1:

Not convinced about the 'most helpful guy' comment.

I know its popular to rail against the machine, the man, corporate suits etc etc BUT

"The main issue is that Kawakami has been including support for features that Creative didn’t intend to enable on certain cards.

An example is Creative’s Alchemy software for Audigy cards, which is included in Kawakami’s driver bundle. This enables the sound card’s EAX surround sound features in games in Vista, which are otherwise unavailable because Vista doesn’t include a hardware abstraction layer (HAL). Creative usually charges $10 US for this software, and describes Kawakami’s bundling of the software as ‘in effect, stealing our goods.’ The Vista driver bundle also includes the Creative DVD Audio software for Audigy 2 cards.

A major slip-up on Kawakami’s part is that he was asking for donations towards the development of the driver bundles, which O'Shaughnessy described as ‘profiting from something that you do not own.’ Of course, Creative is theoretically perfectly within its rights to knock this on the head. However, the post has resulted in a major backlash on the Web from Sound Blaster owners who feel that the company has misled them on Vista-compatibility."

From here: http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602322/creative-cracks-down-on-vista-driver-modder.html

So this suggests that he was actually trying to either undermine a valid business strategy or hoping to make financial gain from someone else's IP.

And in this article: http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602343/creative-driver-modder-responds-to-crackdown.html

he actually states: 'Kawakami readily acknowledges that he was in the wrong when it came to modding ALchemy, but asks: ‘what is the point of improving ALchemy and charging for it when it requires an improved driver?’ He explains that the mod was ‘my protest against Creative.’

Deserves all he gets if you ask me...

[zeroy]

I know what you mean, i was more on the idea that although Creative might be legally correct they went hard on him considering the help provided to Vista/creative users prior to Creative waking up.

[Mike Nomad]

Creative could have and should have handled this matter properly instead of simply jumping up and attempting to crush this young man.

Meanwhile, Creative now has nVidia and Asus to contend with. That is going to get very interesting.

Nonsense...... There's No rock and no hard place. Creative was simply put, caught!

Their software for the Fatality and Audigy Cards with or without the I/O drive is old Audigy software dolled up for the newer XFI cards. Bloatware....

Bloatware that conflicts with other drivers. On top of which, certain facets of the software was deliberate crippleware and Daniel K corrected that.

Daniel K fixed that and Creative's egomaniacal Devs went berserk being outclassed by a user.

I'll think twice before ever buying another Creative Product.

[PizzaTheHut]

Nonsense...... Creative was simply put, caught!

Their software for the Fatality and Audigy Cards with or without the I/O drive is old Audigy sorftware dolled up for the newer cards. Bloatware....

Bloatware that conflicts with other drivers. On top of which, certain facets of the software was deliberate crippleware and Daniel K corrected that.

Bloatware? LoL - isnt that a softwae industry must? Along with 'stiffing' and 'gouging'? Of course it is but it doesnt mean that you can steal someone's IP. Its like coming on here, stealing AWE, saying its 'bloatware' and providing a 'newer', 'better', 'shinier' version and thinking thats ok? I think not.

Daniel K fixed that and Creative's egomaniacal Devs went berserk being outclassed by a user.

They went berserk (as I see it) becuase he stole a specific part of their IP that they charge for and made it available for free.

I'll think twice before ever buying another Creative Product.

Isn't THIS the point? Agreed, Creative aren't the best software company in the world, in fact some of their actions border on corporate larceny however it doesn't justify theft (Which is what stealing someone's IP for for personal gain is).

What is does justify is thinking twice before ever buying one of their products again. Condoning this guys actions is the same as condoning cracked servers, and we dont condone that, this is no different.

[Mike Nomad]

Bloatware? LoL - isnt that a softwae industry must? Along with 'stiffing' and 'gouging'? Of course it is but it doesnt mean that you can steal someone's IP. Its like coming on here, stealing AWE, saying its 'bloatware' and providing a 'newer', 'better', 'shinier' version and thinking thats ok? I think not.

Your analogy of AWE vs Creative is unfair as AWE is an ongoing work in progress with superb, continuous support and content users. There is nothing to compare or find equals to.

Please, understand.... the drivers didn't work as designed.... he fixed it for free. At first, Creative praised the young man's efforts they even HELPED him along his way! Mainly because they weren't in a position to release updates or were not prepared to.

They went berserk (as I see it) becuase he stole a specific part of their IP that they charge for and made it available for free.

Stole????? Stole what??? Can you prove there was theft committed or are you jumping to conclusions?? Where did Daniel K get the source code from?? CREATIVE!!! Please, get all the facts before you jump to any conclusions.

The fact that they were outclassed is what brought the matter to a head. Plus the fact that people were sending donations for a job well done. When users spend $225.00 or more for a product and it doesn't deliver what's promised.... they ARE entitled to support and fixes. When that doesn't happen, third party support is a welcome relief.

In the world of Drivers... this sort of thing goes on all the time with no objections.... There are hot rodded drivers out there for nVidia drivers. They're not stolen!! The modifications are encouraged. Except that is by Creative. Daniel K provided work-around fixes and support free of charge.

Isn't THIS the point? Agreed, Creative aren't the best software company in the world, in fact some of their actions border on corporate larceny however it doesn't justify theft (Which is what stealing someone's IP for for personal gain is).

Creative has been on a slow downhill slide since 1987. In the last few years its become ridiculously obvious. Personal gain?? There WAS NO PERSONAL GAIN. You are embellishing now. Please let's not attempt to be judge and jury here or some kind of lawyer.... using hyped up statements and half truths. The FACTS are the drivers ARE broken and deliberately crippled. The modifications fixed the drivers and removed the cripple code. End of story....

What is does justify is thinking twice before ever buying one of their products again. Condoning this guys actions is the same as condoning cracked servers, and we don't condone that, this is no different.

I agree, I'll think long and hard before I buy any more Creative Products.

I don't condone cracked servers at all as you well know. As for the fixing of broken and useless drivers through modifications and added code I see no harm in that as it protects the market already established by Creative. Not a soul in the world would have a need for the fixed drivers had they not already spent a coupla hundred dollars for the hardware. That is the crux of the matter.

Creative would've been far better off HIRING the guy or obtaining his code and working out an "arrangement" with him as a reward for fixing otherwise useless drivers.

You need to get ALL the facts surrounding this matter before comparing the ridiculous (CRACKED SERVERS) to the reality of fixing broken hardware drivers through modifications and code additions. These things did NO HARM to Creative. In fact, as I stated earlier, it protected their established market by providing working drivers for already purchased hardware. Nobody else would have a need for the drivers. Thus, no harm to Creative. Support to the users and the Creative hardware market.

Let's lose the "lynch mob" attiude and take sa look at the abuse of the consumer. That is the real and genuine hurt in all this. The sudden crashes in CoD4 ca be partly blamed on Creative's faulty drivers as they collide with the speed of nVidia drivers over the 85.xx range. Creative has suffered no harm in this matter other the embarrassment of being exposed as attempting to pull a fast one on the users/consumers.

Ya know, If I were he.... I'd be looking to get even too! I bought 6 XFI Fatality Platinum Editions with I/O drives and they do NOT work as advertised. $225.00 each. :mad:

[Tally]

I think both Mike's and Pizza's views are correct:

1. Creative didnt handle things properly. Its not what they are saying (dont put out IP which you shouldnt). its the way they are saying it.

2. Creative have to protect their IP when it looks like its being threatened.

Its always difficult when the people, or persons being attacked are generally helpful and fill a much needed gap in the support spectrum. Yet that helpfulness does not license them to take IP which they shouldnt, and give it away for free.

Creative are market leaders in sound chips and sampling technology intended for the creation of music through electronic means (its marriage with the industry standards of Cubase, Reason and Logic is the main reason for that). Hence, they will always be an important force to be reckoned with in that respect. However, the implimentation of their software and chips to the general computing world has never been a completely successful one, as the myriad of configuratians in such things has always exposed the yawning gaps in the flexibility of their install software.

I remain hopeful about Creative. Their sampling algorithms are still simply the best in the business, and they still look like that lead position is never going to come under serious threat just yet. And its been that way since they were called EMU music back in the hey-day of '80s electro pop, with their ground-breaking Emu Emulator (used by the likes of Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode, and Yazoo to great effect) - the first affordable polyphonic sampler in the business, and the only real alternative to the Fairlight EM1 and the Synclavier at the time (both about $32,000 in those days).

Yet, they will have to learn that you cannot define yourself over against one group of users - the professional music industry - at least not if you are going to be the provider of at least 90% of all sound systems to the general public out there. There needs to be a more user friendly implimentation of their technology which even the rookie OS user will find helpful and intuative.

[PizzaTheHut]

Mike I dont want to seem to be pedantic but:

Stole????? Stole what??? Can you prove there was theft comitted or are you jumping to conclusions?? Where did Daniel K get the source code from?? CREATIVE!!! Please, get all the facts before you jump to any conclusions.

When you take a product which is copyrighted and sold as a product and then provide it for free then that is theft, just because Daniel K gets the source from Creative doesnt make this legal.

In the world of Drivers... this sort of thing goes on all the time with no objections.... There are hot rodded drivers out there for nVidia drivers. They're not stolen!! The modifications are encouraged. Except that is by Creative. Daniel K provided work-around fixes and support free of charge.

This wasnt a just a simple mod, he was providing the entire product with his alterations for free but the most damning thing was to ask for donations, by doing that he took himself from the moral high ground. Its this element which makes me rankle about this story, its this insidious attempt at a covert revenue stream whilst presenting himself as a simple modder.

Personal gain?? There WAS NO PERSONAL GAIN. You are embellishing now. Please let's not attempt to be judge and jury here or some kind of lawyer.... using hyped up statements and half truths. The FACTS are the drivers ARE broken and deliberately crippled. The modifications fixed the drivers and removed the cripple code. End of story....

You mentioned in caps that there was no personal gain but clearly there was, thats the point. And the fact is that whether the drivers are broken/deliberately crippled or not its Creative's product to do with as they see fit. If part of their strategy is to alienate their entire user base (which they seem singularly effective at) then thats their call, no one else's.

You need to get ALL the facts surrounding this matter before comparing the ridiculous (CRACKED SERVERS) to the reality of fixing broken hardware drivers through modifications and code additions. These things did NO HARM to Creative.

The reality is that both are instances of stolen IP, its that simple. And the harm to Creative is the lost revenue stream for the product which was given away, the normally charge roughly $10 for it (whether morally they should is another argument but again thats there choice)

Other than that I agree with you Mike, Creative have let down their customer base badly, they aren't the most enlightened organisation.

And BTW I should mention that I do enjoy a reasoned debate which doesnt dissolve into abuse just because two people have different views - its a delight to find a forum where you can discuss these matters with adults.

Cheers Mike (and other contributors)

[Wizz]

Folks I can wrap this up in simplier terms and this is what it all boils down to.

Creative has so said that the cards in question is "VISTA CERTIFIED" and 100 percent Vista Ready.

Well folks that is a out right lie hands down. Creative has been caught with purposily crippled drivers and get this the intentional intruducing bugs and glitches to cripple said drivers when Vista is detected has been uncovered.

Thats the facts in simple terms. Creative was caught in the open public now, they lied about their products, they intentionaly crippled said products.

All I got to say is this, F Creative, I am going to another sound card, prob the new Asus one or the Razor. Creative will not get another dollar from me. I do wish to buy a intentionaly crippled product then to be told I have to buy the upgraded version. F that, that is also what it is, a quick money grabbing scam job. Again Creative got caught and now its in the open.

F creative and the horse they rode in on. Now I see why the 200 dollar setup I bought doesnt work with XP, its the sound blaster live platium with the exapansion dock drive and remote.

[-[MB]-]

INSTEAD of getting upset at Creative, what about the creators of vista?? alot of things do NOT work with vista. why should we all have to scurry for drivers and fixes for every piece of software or hardware for vista when it all worked before that.

thats just my 2 cents. i would not waste my money on vista. creative has worked for me in the past, dont have it now....but seems fine to me.

as for what they did, saying there product works with vista, and it doesnt is not very good business......

[Wizz]

-;25336']INSTEAD of getting upset at Creative, what about the creators of vista?? alot of things do NOT work with vista. why should we all have to scurry for drivers and fixes for every piece of software or hardware for vista when it all worked before that.

thats just my 2 cents. i would not waste my money on vista. creative has worked for me in the past, dont have it now....but seems fine to me.

as for what they did, saying there product works with vista, and it doesnt is not very good business......


The thing is that it has been proven that said products do infact work with Vista just fine once the intentionaly crippling is removed. Thats the whole point, Creative said its 100 percent vista ready yet they intentionaly crippled the drivers.

[[FS]Nastyrash]

Well it seems here the best course of action would have been communication between the modder and Creative leading to a compromise, in my mind they could have chosen a path that would have lead to mutual gain and customer satisfaction...

1) once creative found the "free" additions included for their normally chargable product, in the driver bundle, they should have contacted the modder
2) Tested and accessed his work (one assumes it works and has fixed issues creative had been unable/unconcerned with fixing up to this point) after testing decided if his work/driver bundle was good and something they "should" have managed themselves to improve customer satisfaction, their reputation and the improvement of functionality of a released product that was not working as advertised, again one assumes this would prove to be positive based on what has been said so far.
3) Either offered him a consultancy or some kind of golden handshake for his efforts, Creative could have then taken title to the driver (although i assume they own it already technically through copyright, as does IW for cod mods?) and removed the illicit/undiserable content and released it officially


The modder gets his financial reward, as stated he was after this under the banner of "donantions" and there is nothing wrong with that (if sanctioned not off his own back), he has worked for it and should be rewarded imho.

Creative get a "cheap" driver that makes a big difference to the functionality of their product.

Creative however have choosen the idiotic "cut your nose off to spite your face" route.... Big companies and those that run them often become caught up in themselves and forget about their own PR in place of their ego...

I am pig sick with Creative, i have an audigy platimun pro card, ohh i can't remember the model, but it was a top of range external box thingy, and the last driver released totally screwed the mixer and despite reinstalling and doing this that and the other, it isn't fixed and the creative forum has many other people who've had the same problem, what was Creatives response?? NOTHING, not a sorry, not a fix just pathetic, arrogant and down right shoddy customer service from a driver that was released with errors and bugs...

there seems like no winner from this situation currently, the modder and creative have both done wrong, which has done more wrong, is open to debate and you can argue from different sides, morally or legally and both arguments are voiced in this thread both have merrits but morality and the law are seldom good bed fellows so these two perspectives are unlikely to come to the same conclusion

but in the end Creatives customers suffer and what ever else they have the final say with it being their product, customer satisfaction is better than preservation of ego, they should do the right thing for their customers end of story imho..

[Mike Nomad]

Creative climbs down over home brew Vista drivers

Daniel-K slams 'arrogant and sarcastic' company

By Richard Thurston (http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/04/creative_restores_home_brew_vista_driver_links/)

Published Friday 4th April 2008 00:03 GMT

A Brazilian developer threatened with legal action by Creative for making its soundcards work better with Vista has had his work reinstated on the company's website.

Daniel Kawakami, better known by the moniker Daniel_K, modified a range of Creative's drivers to make the company's soundcards work smoothly with Windows Vista.

Without his modifications, users argue, Vista machines with Creative soundcards crash and features fail to work.

Posting a forum message on its website last weekend, Creative threatened Daniel_K with legal action (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/creative_labs_developer_legal_action/), accusing him of infringing its intellectual property. The company removed forum posts from the developer containing links to his work.

The move backfired big time, generating a media firestorm and howls of protests from outraged users on technology forums across the web.

Guess what, Creative has reinstated Daniel_K's posts.

Creative declined to speak to The Register on the matter, but sent us this statement instead.
We have read the strong feedback about Creative's forum post regarding driver development by daniel_k and other outside parties.

Creative's message tried to address our concern about the improper distribution of certain software, which is the property of other companies. However, we did not make it as clear as we would have liked that we do support driver development by independent third parties.

The huge task of developing driver updates to accommodate the many changes in the Vista operating system and the extensive testing required, including the lengthy Vista certification requirements for audio, makes it very difficult for Creative to develop updates for all past products.

Outside developers have been very helpful to Creative and our customers by developing updates for many of our Sound Blaster products, and we do support and appreciate these efforts. This however does not extend to the unauthorized distribution of other companies' property.

We hope to work out a mutually agreeable method for working with daniel_k in supporting his efforts in driver development. Going forward, we are committed to doing a better job of working more closely with third parties to support their development for our products and our customers.
Daniel_K is incensed by Creative. "They publicly threatened me, just to show their arrogance," he told El Reg by email.

He told us that Creative contacted him on a chat session. "They were sarcastic, ironic and asked me if I wanted something from them, as if I were expecting something," he wrote. "It was my protest against them and would like to see how far it would go."
Enough reward

He acknowledges that Creative has a case regarding intellectual property, but is furious about the company's strategy. "I'd say they are stealing [from] their own customers by disabling features based on technologies they own (so they did it on purpose) and by charging for a software that requires an improved driver that they refuse to provide."

"At least they are getting flamed all over the web and they are certainly mad about it. That is enough reward for my hard work," he wrote.

Daniel_K's modified drivers have proved immensely popular, with 100,000 downloads in total, according to the developer.

Users had complained that, without them, Vista machines based on Creative's soundcards crashed and features failed.

Some forum posters have already suggested that, given Daniel_K's success in modifying its drivers, the company should offer him a job.

So The Register asked him if he would accept a job if offered by Creative.

"No."

SOURCE (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/04/creative_restores_home_brew_vista_driver_links/)

[TruSlaughter]

they've been dumping posts by the hundreds http://creative.edited.us/deleted3.html including one from a major reseller newegg found at post 118:

Reply

Re: Message to Daniel_K [ Edited ] Options

newegg
Newbie
Posts: 1
Registered: 03-30-2008



Message 1179 of 1,194

Viewed 92 times


To Whom it May Concern:


While it is not our place to condemn the decisions of Creative regarding this issue, our customers come first. That being said, it has come to our attention that many of our customers are not happy with the products Creative has released nor the support for those products. To wit, we have processed nearly 5,000 return orders within the past 48 hours. While it is not normally in our best interest to publically comment in a manufacturer's forum, the overwhelming concensus has left us little choice. As such, effective tommorow morning newegg.com will suspend sales of the sound cards in question, particularly those indicated as "Vista compatible", pending an investigation into the matter. Those of you whom recently ordered such a card will still recieve your product as indicated in any relevant conversations. While we regret this abrupt decision, it has been deemed neccessary to protect the interest of our consumers. We welcome contact from Creative as soon as is possible so that we may resolve this issue.


Thank you,

Newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com

E:/ support@newegg.com


HELPFUL LINKS:
Print Help And FAQs: http://www.newegg.com/Info/FAQHome.aspx
Our Contact Information: http://www.newegg.com/Info/ContactUs.aspx
Update Account: https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/MyAccount/AccountModify.asp

Message Edited by newegg on 03-30-2008 03:09 PM

seems that Creative is on a serious death run. even with the apology they've really stirred a hornets nest that i'm sure will sting them

[Mike Nomad]

That post's validity is in question..... since NewEgg is still offering Creative Products.


Possibly I'm wrong but I think the post/poster are a fraud and the links added to lend credibility to the post.

Can anyone find corroborating posts, notices etc.. at the NewEgg site(s)?

[[3rdArmy]CW-4]

Sounds like they should pay this guy 10 per download for fixing their crap...

Plus sack a few driver programmers to boot.

[TruSlaughter]

I think you are correct Mike, my bad for not researching before i posted. i ck'd thier forums http://www.eggxpert.com/ and found no mention of the creative disaster. but Creative is guilty of dumping lots of posts in an effort to do damage control and i still think the whole fiasco will bite them back

[Mike Nomad]

I think you are correct Mike, my bad for not researching before i posted. i ck'd thier forums http://www.eggxpert.com/ and found no mention of the creative disaster. but Creative is guilty of dumping lots of posts in an effort to do damage control and i still think the whole fiasco will bite them back


About Creative, you are 100% correct. In fact, they're already backpedalling like crazy. Now, they simply must FIX the drivers for BOTH Vista and XP. There's already an update out for the high end cards.

[[FS]Nastyrash]

it's amazing how some of these companies operate and manage their PR, in most other areas in particular, traditional retail or service sectors businesses just could not operate in this nonsensical fashion... PC users do accept or more likely are forced to accept products that don't work efficiently or are broken and require "fixing" but the promises of "fixing" are not always forthcomming or are less than anticipated/promised. This appears to be symptomatic of PC software and hardware developers imo

I appreciate development for PC's is pretty tough for software manufacturers due to the differing levels of hardware and operating systems, not always a defense against laziness however, but ffs creative take the biscuit in terms of being a hardware manufacturer that can't even get it together with an operating system that they KNOW is vital as it is indeed the latest version of windows, that is ridiculous in fact i'd go as far as to allege negligent or fraudulant possibly in terms of stating compatability when in fact the definition of that is somewhat unclear.

i am no expert but appears to me that the claims at the point of sale were incorrect if one deems "compatable" to suggest that the operating system in this case Vista, works without complication and NOT inducing a conflict based on that OS with the hardware. From what i have read so far this doesn't seem to be the case

You would think they would have embraced the opportunity to conform to what could be perceived as a breach of the sales contract, instead they direct their attention NOT on them protecting themselves and their customers from a product that was not "as advertised" and a malfunctioning product, but instead they DO deem it more important to protect their IP and attack the source of potential salvation. I do appreciate and support protection of IP, but you have to way up each individual situation and decide the best course of action, as i staed in another post they could have achieved both aims had someone their thought about a strategy that involved daniel k rather than alienating and attacking him...

I will think long and hard about creative in future, i originally went for them as i was told they were the best, well this appears in question to me and having had problems myself and visited their official forms and seen the arrogant and ignorant responses or lack of i may have to resort to what is the ultimate sanction and reserve my own custom in future when deciding my next PC specs