RO-Kriegstadt_B2

[Mike Nomad]

From; EvilHobo;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/EvilHobo/banner_b2.jpg

RO-Kriegstadt: The Fall of Berlin, Beta 2

DOWNLOAD HERE (http://www.red.orchestra.pl/plug.php?e=maps)

Historical Background: Beginning on the 20th of April, 1945, the city of Berlin fell within range of Soviet artillery and signaled the start of the Battle of Berlin. Within a few days, the city would see itself encircled and its supply stocks captured: the fate of Berlin was sealed. Yet within the city itself was a garrison of some 45,000 Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS soldiers, far less than what it was said would be required to defend adequately. The defense of the city was divided in to eight defense sectors with designations from “A” to “H,” and in the center lay Sektor Z or the “Zitadelle” where the XVIII Panzergrenadier Division was held in reserve. Over the next week, Soviet forces overran the city block by block, reducing the territory held by the Germans to a strip of land no larger than 15km long and 3km at its widest. At this point, the date was April 28th 1945, and the Third Shock Army was little more than over a kilometer away from the Reichstag. But between the Soviets and their objective remains the 11.SS ‘Nordland’ division, a volunteer force of Scandinavians who will fight to the bitter end, and they hold a vital obstacle which will need to be overcome: the Moltke Bridge.

Loadouts:
Allies:
Reinforcements: 1500
x1 Kommandir Oteldynia
x1 Kommandir Tanka
x2 Pulemetchik
x3 Epihzah Tanka
x8 Avtomatchik
∞ Strelok

Axis:
Reinforcements: 500
x1 Zugführer-SS
x1 Schütze-SS mit MK
x1 Panzerjager-SS
x2 MG-Schütze-SS
x4 Stoßtruppe-SS
∞ Schütze-SS

Changelog:


Fixed BSP holes within the Ministry of the Interior and the Deutsche Bank.
Corrected a terrain exploit on the Flemingstraße.
Fixed an issue where the player was able to fall out of the map at the initial Soviet spawn.
Modified the Apartments capzone. Soviet players now are no longer channeled in to a killing zone as much as was seen previously, and an additional entrance has been added.
Moved the initial German spawn back.
Raised terrain along the Werftstraße in order to allow Soviet players to enter a building at the end of the street.
Reorganized Panzerfausts within the Deutsche Bank, Hotel, and Bridge caps, such that they take longer to respawn and are spread out rather than set up in caches.
Reduced spawn times for IS2 & SU76 at final Soviet tank spawn from 35 to 30 seconds.
Corrected an issue which caused for tanks to have improper ammunition loadouts.
Increased the damage of the PaK43/41 from 450 to 800.
Fixed an issue where the German spawn for the Dornburg Apartments defaulted to a later spawn area.
Moved the German spawn for the Command Post and Dornburg Apartments back to the start of the Flemingstraße
Corrected an issue where the vault room of the Deutschebank was missing a ZoneInfo.
Improved interior lighting within several buildings.
Added/Modified minefield volumes to allow for improved spawn protection.
Added trees along certain streets to better mask infantry movement.
Increased Axis reinforcements from 475 to 500
Increased Allied reinforcements from 1250 to 1500
Increased lifespan of destroyed tank meshes from 60 to 90 seconds
Added the new obliteration effect when a tank is destroyed
Removed the fire and smoke left by a destroyed vehicle to reduce total number of particles. It will now leave simply the destroyed mesh.
Increased IS2 health from 800 to 1000
Removed fire and smoke left by the destroyed Pantherturm.
Modified the Pantherturm to make it impervious to Panzerfaust rounds.
Replaced Panzerfausts with a modified PanzerfaustEH weapon, which features increased damage and the ability for the player to hold only 2.
Reduced the size of the forward third story room in the Ministry of the Interior
Reduced the size of the Moltke Bridge cap area.
Increased the time that it takes to capture the Moltke Bridge cap.
Removed the M38 Rifle from the Strelok inventory selection.
Fixed an issue where vehicles passing through the collapsed section of the Dornburg Apartments got stuck on seemingly nothing.
Fixed several terrain leak issues; some still remain.
Added another accessible building to the Flemingstraße Ruins
Adjusted the Flemingstraße Ruins cap volume to make the Axis have to fight harder to hold it.
Replaced the SU76 for the Flemingstraße Ruins cap with a T-34/85.
Conformed the cap volume for the Apartments to the building geometry
Fixed an issue with Red Orchestra where the MG42 kill message mistakenly stated it was an MG34.
Added wall openings in the Flemingstraße Ruins to link the buildings and provide the Axis with safe passage to the Deutsche Bank
Added a new Axis spawn for the Forward Command objective.
Modified the Hotel such that the cap can only be initiated on the second floor and up.
Added some craters along the streets.
Removed zoning in the forward rooms of the Ministry: it was causing too many BSP holes.
Allowed for a PaK43 between the Interior Ministry and Alsen Viertel to respawn.
Raised terrain by the final Soviet tank spawn such that the Anti Tank Guns were unable to have a clear line of fire in.

The PaK43 doesn't work!
I know! It's not something I can fix, you will need to wait for the base AT Gun code to be updated/corrected. The weapon worked perfectly fine before the most recent Red Orchestra patch which added Manual Tank Shell Reloading. The weapon will not function unless you have it enabled. Furthermore, the weapon will cease to function if someone without the option enabled tried to use the gun. It is buggy, but it will work if you use it properly.

The PaK43/41 was created by the Darkest Hour: Normandy 1944 Mod Team and is NOT for use in other maps or modifications without the expressed permission from the Darkest Hour: Normandy 1944 Mod Team.

Credits and Thanks
FlashPanHunter – For granting me permission to make a map involving the Moltke Bridge in October of 2006 and for his advice and technical assistance throughout the development cycle of Kriegstadt. Without being able to go to FPH on a number of issues, the map would have suffered dramatically.

Darkest Hour: Normandy 1944 Team – Without this group, the PaK43 would not have come in to existence. Special thanks go out to tman24 for permissions, Desvigator for the model, Aeneas2020 for the skin, and Lex & Teufelhund from After-Hourz Gaming Network for their efforts toward coding and animating the PaK43.

After-Hourz Gaming Network – For having granted me the time to use AHz servers for Kriegstadt alpha testing and providing useful feedback which prompted me to work harder on the map to make a satisfying beta release. Special thanks to Slyk for tolerating my last minute shenanigans.

Shurek – He and I had a lot of things going for this map in terms of new meshes like for civilian vehicles, but those never came to fruition for a number of reasons. Regardless of that point, he was also instrumental in the creation of the hull mounted MG for the IS2, and perhaps in beta 2 we might see the rear turret mounted MG.

Fennich_FJR6 – Helped to alleviate the issue of the “zombie bug” which would cause for the newly added skins to not resort to karma physics when killed. Without this small but vital bit of help, it would have been green versus yellow again.

[PzDF] RO German Community - Offered me server FTP space (see above!) and set up a 50 player 24/7 Kriegstadt Server. They have my thanks for bringing Kriegstadt to the German Community and to Europe.

wo0t & Deeival - For hosting and maintaining the {CoreNA} 24/7 Kriegstadt! server, seeing to it that it was set for public play tests so that Beta 2 could be further refined.

Special thanks for the following for discussions on and about the map during development, which helped me to produce a better piece of work.

Sichartshofen
SnaggyDuck
Hamburgerphil
Himmelstoss
Vader
Koba
Trendkill (nice sig!)

Der Kampf um Berlin geht weiter!

See you on the battlefield,
EvilHobo

[vbloke]

wow - loadsa fixes - good job.
I especially like:
"Modified the Apartments capzone. Soviet players now are no longer channeled in to a killing zone as much as was seen previously, and an additional entrance has been added. "

Sometimes the allies would not get past the 1st cap.

:bravo:

[Mike Nomad]

The PAK 43 does work if you read the instructions about how to use it.

Also, I must say the grafx are excellent. Its fairly obvious a great deal of work went into this map.

The new placements of the PAK 43 Guns is interesting... but ineffective as far as the Germans are concerned. In a T34/85 I was able to neutralize those things in no time flat.

Further, it appears the Ruskies are going to win this puppy more often than not. (Such was the case for us in B1). The only thing that confounds me is the "play on a rail" layout. Why?

It as if all the gameplay is relatively pre-decided. Frankly, this map is gorgeous to look at but once you've played it a few times.. you begin to realize you must play it "their" way or no way. In other words, the "new" is all gone.

The Tank ammo selection thingy is still broken... it seems to insist it wants HE rounds - until you fight with it and set/reset it to AP. The unsuspecting Ruskie tanker is gonna get creamed by the Panther Turret.

Overall, the map is just dandy..... and ideal for clammers.

[OneShot]

My small complaints have been the fact that I would have liked to seen some of the "flanks" opened up a bit which has been addressed to some extent. From the narrative the city was completely encircled with the Soviets attacking from all sides, perhaps mapping constraints (size) thus limited some of the avenues of advance/defense for the author? Also the graphics are indeed superb but I believe the war torn streets of Berlin could still reflect even more the utter devastation (more cover for the players), but perhaps again this is a limitation of the mapping for RO (looks vs FPS)? But imo it is a very nice, fun map, and shows a great deal of though and hard work by the mapper. Thanks again EvilHobo:bravo:

[EvilHobo]

Overall, the map is just dandy..... and ideal for clammers.

Whoops, sorry I made a challenging map. My bad.

[Mike Nomad]

Whoops, sorry I made a challenging map. My bad.


Hahahahahh... Its not a bad thing, Its just a "thing".

I'd hoped you'd realize that... you really have no propensity for sarcasm. You, no doubt, have created an enjoyable map that offers a high degree of "eye candy" but its hardly challenging. In fact, we find that the Ruskies win 90% of the time. So, while enjoyable, the map quickly becomes extremely predictable rather than "challenging".

Unfortunately, as was previously stated, it appears the map is BIASED towards clammers and not ideally suited for everyone. Its on a rail, extremely limited with little or no opportunity for flanking, a narrow pathway if you will. Because of these "attributes", the map will more than likely become challenging to many casual players in a very short while in as much as re-playability is concerned. But at the same time, the map can easily become a "cult clammer map".

Its disappointing to see that you are apparently either unable to understand or incapable of accepting constructive criticism. I had hoped that you would at least be capable of conducting a civil discussion about the map and that perhaps, what we had to offer may have been of some help in bringing the map to a higher level and thus, more appealing to a greater majority of players.

[EvilHobo]

It's odd because when I play the Germans always win. And that was with a 44 player server and only myself and two other clanmates, the rest of whom were PUBBERS. So I wonder...what kind of team are you playing with? Let's hear about that one. I hope you haven't been playing the map with legions of bots on the RGN servers.

To your other points, let's also think of the scenario here. This is urban warfare, okay? What makes up cities? Oh, streets and buildings. Streets tend to be linear. My map reflects that. It reflects, furthermore, the danger of urban fighting because of those streets. Furthermore, were I to delinerate the map, it would kill it. Why? It's a huge map. To split up the teams and have them going off to other objectives or taking alternative routes would leave everything as a piecemeal assault. My flanking opportunities come within buildings themselves, which is why rooms are interconnected or several buildings have multiple stairwells. In any event though, my map was never about WIDE FLANKING MANEUVERS or anything of that nature. It was to create an urban combined arms experience where the attackers would need to coordinate with their armor in order to advance and the defenders would need to utilize suprise assaults and a defense in depth in order to achieve victory. In my book, I succeeded. But you never did think like me, or it seems, any one else who has played the map.

Another thing is, I don't want my map to appeal to a greater audience of players. Now why would I do that? Because a lot of them are idiots and will only complain about a lack of all the things they find in Danzig. My map separates the chaff from the wheat. Players looking for organized teamplay in a realistic environment have my map. Everyone else has the rest of Red Orchestra. I would like to keep it that way.

If the map is so problematic you can always remove it from your rotation. Would suck to keep such a clammer map on there.

[vbloke]

i think the map rocks - i often look for that map first and connect to any server playing it.
nice one.

[Mike Nomad]

If the map is so problematic you can always remove it from your rotation. Would suck to keep such a clammer map on there.


You are 100% correct....the clammer map, its now very much.... GONE. You asked for constructive criticism and when I tried to politely inform you of our findings, you go ballistic, laced with sarcastic and snotty remarks.

That is sad.. The map is now history and you can take your "hissy fit" somewhere else. I thought perhaps we could help but I see that's not the case. You don't want help.

@ vbloke - I'm sorry Vbloke.... you'll have to find that map elsewhere. We enjoy your company in our server though.

[EvilHobo]

It's your loss really. Perhaps you should evaluate your criticism a bit better. Slipping subtle punches against clans in there isn't the way to make me think any higher of you.

On the other hand, considering that this is the guy who suggested 12 tanks to a side for Tractor Works, I might be better off seeking constructive criticism from everyone else, something I have been doing. However, the people I have gotten to talk to didn't slip in any underhand insults about my clan orientation either.

I understand why Slyk doesn't come here any more.

To vbloke and OneShot, thank you for your kind words, but if you wish to play the map ....<snip> Anyway, thank you, just know there are other options out there.


Message edited for improper content.
You are not going to hustle other servers in our forum without prior approval.. You have truly worn out your welcome now. If you cannot respect our rules, don't bother posting.

[Mike Nomad]

It's your loss really. Perhaps you should evaluate your criticism a bit better. Slipping subtle punches against clans in there isn't the way to make me think any higher of you.

Oh, believe me, My only loss was the time I took to make a sincere attempt at offering a constructive critique for your benefit. I carefully chose the words I used. You subsequently invited me to remove the map. Your wish has been granted the map is history.

On the other hand, considering that this is the guy who suggested 12 tanks to a side for Tractor Works, I might be better off seeking constructive criticism from everyone else, something I have been doing. However, the people I have gotten to talk to didn't slip in any underhand insults about my clan orientation either.And your point is?? Clan orientation? Surely you jest... The map plays on a rail!! Either one follows the defined path or they get killed by mines or bounces off collision brushes. I could care less about clans, clammers and all that regimentation. You like and enjoy that sort of thing.. More power to you. By your ongoing snide remarks, you make it painfully evident you are trying to prove just how much of a Pratt you truly are.

I understand why Slyk doesn't come here any more.Yep... you can join him too. We are not "ass kissing groupies and brownies" in this forum. We say it like we see it. You have worn out your welcome here. Discontinue the personal attacks and flamebait. NOW!

To vbloke and OneShot, thank you for your kind words, but if you wish to play the map.....<snip> Anyway, thank you, just know there are other options out there.

You are not going to hustle other servers in our forum without prior approval.. You have truly worn out your welcome now. If you cannot respect our rules, don't bother posting.

[EvilHobo]

I did it for the lulz.

[Mike Nomad]

And there folks, you have another sarcastic smart-ass remark from our friend....


As Nomad pays out some more rope. :d

[EvilHobo]

Here's something I find interesting, absolutely nowhere in your RGN Rules does it say anything about mentioning other servers. Nothing. What's the matter Mike, should only RGN severs be the sole point of discussion within your forums? My map was removed from your server, okay, so I suggest alternatives. Are you just trying to jerk some leashes now or something, because you don't want people to leave you? Let's face it, people like my map. If they want to play it, they will play it. And I can guarantee you that having it not run on an RGN server will make a difference to anyone except possibly you.

On to a smart-ass point by point dissection of your constructive criticism:

The new placements of the PAK 43 Guns is interesting... but ineffective as far as the Germans are concerned. In a T34/85 I was able to neutralize those things in no time flat.

Well, bots don't use the guns so that might have been an issue when you played. Furthermore, if you played with a real person manning the gun, they should have been able to destroy you with a single shot. Otherwise, you were playing against imbeciles. The people and servers I played with had people knocking out Soviet tanks left and right with the guns, with one person racking up a total of 9 Soviet tanks destroyed at the Alt-Moabit Straße.

Further, it appears the Ruskies are going to win this puppy more often than not. (Such was the case for us in B1). The only thing that confounds me is the "play on a rail" layout. Why?

Beta 2 was designed to give both the Russians and Germans a bit more of a chance against each other. I have seen the Axis win time and time again, and in other instances I have seen the Russians with with 50 minutes on the clock. Whereas some would say this map is biased towards a specific team, the team in question is the one with the most experienced and tactically sound players. This is, in my opinion, the way all maps should be.

And the play on a rail layout? This is a linear map. I doesn't have to utilize wide flanking maneuvers or have multiple open caps at any given time. Do you hate Gorlitz, for instance? In a map as large as this, one cannot do much else other than provide for a linear experience, otherwise you would run out of cap zones or end up with a mess like Rakowice. I have succeeded in my goal of creating an urban combined arms map. Streets are long and linear. It wouldn't make much sense to have it be done in any other way. Take in to consideration also that my map is based in history with the layout of the streets being not all that dissimilar from Berlin itself.

It as if all the gameplay is relatively pre-decided. Frankly, this map is gorgeous to look at but once you've played it a few times.. you begin to realize you must play it "their" way or no way. In other words, the "new" is all gone.

Bite me. Every other map which operates in the same lieu as mine has a pre-decided gameplay element which runs along the lines of the mapper's design philosophy. Other maps may offer you one or two other ways to the objective, all of which are saturated with grenades. With my map, it wasn't about the paths to take, it was about how you take it. The options for tactical movement or varying deployment of troops is present, one simply has to make use of it. I'm sorry if bots or pubbers who are wondering where Danzig is can't quite get this concept.


The Tank ammo selection thingy is still broken... it seems to insist it wants HE rounds - until you fight with it and set/reset it to AP. The unsuspecting Ruskie tanker is gonna get creamed by the Panther Turret.

The tanks are set up in such a manner that HE is preloaded, so you don't have to fire an AP round to load an HE. The Allies fight only one armored vehicle the whole time they are in the map, so operating with HE is the way to go. If you are having such a difficult time switching to AP, please check to see where the arrow is that is pointing at the type of ammunition you have loaded. It's something I would expect even you can do. Furthermore, approaching the Pantherturm requires *gasp!* teamwork. You need to work to outflank him or overwhelm him. It is a fortress in its own right, but once it falls, as does the objective when the Russian tanks are permitted to dominate the scene...with preloaded HE ammunition.

Overall, the map is just dandy..... and ideal for clammers.

A pity that clammers can think and formulate their own tactics. At the same time, there are also pubbers who long for tactical gameplay, and I have played with them on the map and they thoroughly enjoyed it, with no clan tags to be found.


And your point is?? Clan orientation? Surely you jest... The map plays on a rail!! Either one follows the defined path or they get killed by mines... I could care less about clans clammers and all that regimentation. You like and enjoy that sort of thing>> More power to you. By your ongoing snide remarks, you make it painfully evident you are trying to prove just how much of a pratt you are.


Mines serve the same purpose in my map that they do in others: as map boundaries. If you walked in to them and got killed you are an idiot, case closed. Also, considering you've never been in a clan, don't talk to me about regimentation, it's in fact quite lax where I am. We're just a bunch of good players who play together in scrims and in matches against other clans who are looking to have a good time by playing good players. Such is the clan. I'm in a clan and I have played the pubs, and I can tell you which is superior. You've only done one of the aforementioned, which is why you are not in any position to make a call on how a clan is run.

Love,
{CoreNA}EvilHobo

[OneShot]

Map of the Final Stages of the Battle of Berlin - once across the bridge the Soviets attack via the middle and both flanks toward the Reichstag
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1308/berlin15fq3.jpg

The streets of Berlin after Buldozers cleared a path for traffic - prior the roads litterally would have been an infantryman's haven as far as cover thru the streets for advancement
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8809/berlin2na7.jpg

This is a staged photo by the Soviets right after the fall of Berlin but relects the massive damage to the Reichstag
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3432/bwstormdm9.jpg

Damage to the Brandenbergh gate as seen after the Battle
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2153/brandenburggate1945wh0.jpg

Another view of the Reichstag
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9932/320326oldreichstag300mm8.jpg

[Mike Nomad]

Such is the clan. I'm in a clan and I have played the pubs, and I can tell you which is superior. You've only done one of the aforementioned, which is why you are not in any position to make a call on how a clan is run.

Love,
{CoreNA}EvilHobo


And.... much "love" back.

If you think for one second that you can come in our forum and provide a litany of servers in a revengeful effort you are out of your mind. In fact, as most of your tripe is hateful, insulting and mostly arrogant flame bait I'll ignore and excuse it because of your irresponsible impetuosity. It must however, end. If you are incapable of complying, I'll be only too happy to assist you.

As more rope is paid out..........:)

Face it, your map will not see the light of day on our server. As per your request.

No further discussion is needed.

[Rebel_US]

It's odd because when I play the Germans always win. And that was with a 44 player server and only myself and two other clanmates, the rest of whom were PUBBERS. So I wonder...what kind of team are you playing with? Let's hear about that one. I hope you haven't been playing the map with legions of bots on the RGN servers.

To your other points, let's also think of the scenario here. This is urban warfare, okay? What makes up cities? Oh, streets and buildings. Streets tend to be linear. My map reflects that. It reflects, furthermore, the danger of urban fighting because of those streets. Furthermore, were I to delinerate the map, it would kill it. Why? It's a huge map. To split up the teams and have them going off to other objectives or taking alternative routes would leave everything as a piecemeal assault. My flanking opportunities come within buildings themselves, which is why rooms are interconnected or several buildings have multiple stairwells. In any event though, my map was never about WIDE FLANKING MANEUVERS or anything of that nature. It was to create an urban combined arms experience where the attackers would need to coordinate with their armor in order to advance and the defenders would need to utilize suprise assaults and a defense in depth in order to achieve victory. In my book, I succeeded. But you never did think like me, or it seems, any one else who has played the map.

Another thing is, I don't want my map to appeal to a greater audience of players. Now why would I do that? Because a lot of them are idiots and will only complain about a lack of all the things they find in Danzig. My map separates the chaff from the wheat. Players looking for organized teamplay in a realistic environment have my map. Everyone else has the rest of Red Orchestra. I would like to keep it that way.

If the map is so problematic you can always remove it from your rotation. Would suck to keep such a clammer map on there.

Your arrogange never ceases to amaze me - prior to a criticism I had made about your map, I had considered you a great mapper - and then I come here and read THIS??

I'll revise my estimate of you now - you're a semi-literate mapper that also has a tremendous amount of maturity to gain.

This MAP HAD potential - but the originator killed it. You don't seem to realize how inter-connected this community is, and you flying off the handle like you're notorious for only spells your own delegation to the side-lines.

You ASK for criticism and then go nuts when people DO that? It's just another map that died a swift death now...oh well.

[Mike Nomad]

And.... that's why it'll never see the light of day on * any * Server I admin. :p

[Heinz]

CoreNA is a "younger" clan IIRC, as far as the age of its members. that may explain a bit. I remember a real handful of a clan mate we had on RTR left to join CoreNA. <shrugs>

[EvilHobo]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but you're a minority in the RO community. The only reason I ever feel compelled to come here is to get some laughs in because of how close-minded a lot of the people here are. And I suppose that my words here, in this closed community that people who -- if not registered -- cannot view is going to be the death knell to my map?

Please.

Also, I really liked the kind words you had for my buddy who joined your server Mike, it really showed me how much of a mature person you are. Why, I don't think I've ever come out and directly called you a **** (oh my its censored on your forums), douche, asshole, or anything like that have I? No...and yet you felt compelled to say such things about me. Honestly, for maturity's sake, one could at least expect you to form more articulate insults rather than reducing oneself to the basest such as those.

Let's also consider that my map has:

-Been cited as one of the most realistic experiences in RO.
-Been cited as being on that brings back the gritty feeling of the mod.
-Has been called the best map for RO ever.
-Players in game told me it was the best Combined Arms map in RO.
-The map has generated more interest in the Level Design forums than Berezina or Orel (using posts/views as criteria)
-Has introduced custom content which has led players to consider them better than what is available in stock RO.
-Pita (you know Pita don't you Rebel?) said the map has "rekindled his love affair with RO."

And all of this apparently amounts to nothing because the foil hat club doesn't like me?

Oh and Rebel, I really appreciated your drunken feedback.

"Tone it down man."

"How so?"

"Ya just got to tone it down..."

"Tone it down how?"

And then you launch off on to this tirade of me not respecting you and all this other nonsense. I can't say I can really respect the words of an angry alcoholic. And you still never told me how you wanted it toned down. Sometimes, if you want me to reply to feedback, you actually have to give it. You slurred something over Teamspeak. That doesn't help.

Sorry I don't welcome all of your suggestions with open arms. I can think for myself, and I work to please my intended audience, which is not RGN. If you have such awesome ideas for maps, do it yourself.

Considering Beta 3 is in the works and people (with the exception of yourselves) are loving Beta 2, the map is far from a swift death.

Nag, whine, accuse, and fabricate all you want. Just because you say something, it doesn't make it true.

EvilHobo

[Heinz]

I read the thread on your map over at the RO:O forums, and it certainly appears popular. I don't play RO anymore, so, I can't comment personally.

perhaps it's best at this point to just agree to disagree and let this just die out. nothing further is being achieved here.

best of luck with the mapping.

[vbloke]

i really don't like seeing stuff like this.
no need for all this arguing.
i don't even understand (nor do i want to) what its about.
it turns me off the whole "scene".
meh.
i like the map. some people dont. end of.
think i will stay off RO forums . i cant be doing with this.

[Mike Nomad]

@ vbloke

Please don't allow yourself to be upset by irresponsible retorts and personal attacks by HoBo... He has received an infraction for such and has been sternly warned that if he continues with his insults and attacks he will get gone...

I am appalled at Hobo's immature, aggresive and extremely arrogant behavior.


ps; Hey Hobo, GET OVER YOURSELF!

[Harvey]

Let's also consider that my map has:

-Been cited as one of the most realistic experiences in RO.
-Been cited as being on that brings back the gritty feeling of the mod.
-Has been called the best map for RO ever.
-Players in game told me it was the best Combined Arms map in RO.
-The map has generated more interest in the Level Design forums than Berezina or Orel (using posts/views as criteria)
-Has introduced custom content which has led players to consider them better than what is available in stock RO.
-Pita (you know Pita don't you Rebel?) said the map has "rekindled his love affair with RO."


“Modesty and unselfishness: These are the virtues which men praise, and pass" ..by Andre Maurois

:p:p

Maybe I've read it the wrong way :o

[OneShot]

All this reminds me of the movie called "Kelly's Heroes" a WWII off/comedy satire from WWII! There is a line in the movie where the squad led by Telly Savales (Big Joe) finally see the column of 3 Sherman tanks commanded by OddBall (Donald Sutherland) they have been waiting for accompanied by several hundred unexpected soldiers which meant they will have to split the gold more ways.

Anyway, Big Joe says to OddBall "those guys are nuts, they're a bunch of freaks!" and then OddBall replies "watch what you say Big Joe, some of those people got sensitive feelings!" Probably a bad analogy and a long way to go to try and make a point, but all we are talking about is a map here!

HoBo relax Guy, no one is chastising you personally or your ability to map, just putting forth our observations, opinions and thoughts here in this forum where as you stated only RGN members view so what is the big deal after all? Being that the map was/is a Beta release and we believed you, as a mapper, were/are soliciting opinions, we presented ours here. I know it is easy to feel personal about a piece of work, honestly I do, but try and understand if we had no interest in your map at all, this thread would never have happened.

Many, many maps are released and never get mentioned in these forums I can assure you. I believe our only motive was to try and suggest some constructive criticisms as to how we felt you could make a truly fine map perhaps a little more enjoyable for some of us. It is your map of course, do what you please with it and I wish you all the success in the world with it and your future endeavors, but in the very least try to understand our motives for this debate and kindly show some respect for RGN and its' membership. We also have a passion for RO:OST!

Please reread all the posts here from the beginning, everyone here was supportive, complimentary, and excited about your new map, and I do mean everyone here! I know Mike was even contemplating very seriously early on about making one of the RGN 50 man servers a 24/7 exclusive for a month just for your new map! We were that taken with it! That says a lot in my book. You of all people must understand the expense alone in operating and maintaining a top of the line 50 Man RO:OST server right?

HoBo no one here went to the RO boards and was critical or derogatory or negative of your map or your mapping abilities. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, especially here at RGN where open dialog is the main stay. Had this particular thread appeared in any other forum it is my opinion that "vacations" would have been swift in coming.

Yet here, despite your personal attacks against RGN members ( BITE ME, really Guy in a public forum, directed at the Admin of that forum, dude come on now, its like taking a dump in someones living room!!!)(or calling others "Alcoholics") you still are welcomed to contribute to our discussion.

Please keep your comments on topic, civil and not personal in nature and I can assure you any communications here will continue freely, openly and in a mutually respected manner. As an aside, we all talk trash on each other in fun on the RGN server frequently, but consider your post telling him to bite you and my analogy about taking a dump and perhaps you can understand the Admin's frustration/anger over your postings in his own forums and actions on his servers! These forums may be public as well as the RGN servers are, no PAY PAL here, no clans only, no BS, but remember just who is footing all the expense. Then think how many 50 man servers are out there, being paid for by an individual strictly to showcase the talents of mappers like yourself, all for free!

If you can't at least abide by a few simple rules (common sense really) then I personally will send you packing my friend, no threat, just a promise.

Now G** D** it open up the flanks for me so I can be sneaky!!! (sorry not a good time for a joke but need to lighten it up a bit after my posting!:wink2:

note to all: my apologies to all for my long winded rant:eek:

[Mike Nomad]

Dr. Guppy gives us an eval of this map.....


From DrGuppy;

Ok, took a little longer than I thought but here it is for you EvilHobo.

First of all, I was pleasantly surprised when I opened the map in the editor because you've done a lot of things right. I also like the amount of research and detail you've put into the map, so kudos for that. :wink1:

This might seem a little unorganized but I'm writing these down as I see them. Bear with me and feel free to ask about specifics or why I said something. Also, I apologize if this doesn't make sense to anyone other than EvilHobo but I felt it was best to post it out in the open so other mappers could contribute. Here goes...

This is all from RO-Kriegstadt_Beta2.rom file.

First thing I did was check the overall stats for the map to get a sense of what I was looking at. I can safely say that you've gone overboard in quite a few places but don't worry, they can be corrected! Leningrad_Beta2 was also quite bloated, probably even more so! :o

Total Brushes: 3383
Total Staticmeshes: 4191
Total Anti-Portals: 26
Total Emitters: 26 (including 3 FireLarge emitters)
Fog Distance: 20500 UU
Average StaticMesh Triangles: 60k (max 120k at bridge)
Average MaxTextures: 125 (max 200 or so)
Particles: 50-175
TerrainSectors: (450 max)
Terrain Triangles: 15k average, 75k max
StaticMesh Triangle ms: 3 - 5
BSP Render ms: 0.5 - 1.5
Setup ms: 5
Traverse ms: 4 - 5

This is just a rough estimate but here's what I would be concerned with in general. I'll give you a list of specific offenders near the bottom of the post.

Your biggest problems with performance are most likely coming from the very high BSP and SM counts. I would aim for a goal of 2000 brushes and no more than 3000 staticmeshes.

Anti-Portal number is fine, although some of them could be improved in various ways, more on that in a bit.

26 emitters is normally fine but in your map this is too many. The reason for this is that almost all of your emitters can be seen from great distances and also create a lot of overdraw (eg. the dust emitters).

Fog Distance is a good number I think, no issues there.

Staticmesh triangle count throughout the map is really low actually, but they take a lot of time to render because there's an insane amount of them coupled with the fact that you've used a high number of different statics (eg. using 5 tree meshes when you could get away with 2).

The bridge area will need some work because 100k SM triangles is pushing it when you have so much else going on as well.

MaxTextures is a little on the high side, 100 unique textures in view at once should be the end goal. This can easily be corrected by removing unneeded statics and textures that are only used a few times in the map. This will also help cut down on the size of the map greatly.

For the most part your terrain is fine, however, in some places you have up to 450 terrain sectors! This is really a high number and it is caused by the setting TerrainInfo > TerrainSectorSize: 8. I could attempt to explain what TerrainSectorSize does but UDN already has a section on it that does a pretty good job.

Basically, the terrain is being culled in blocks of 8 in your map when it should be in blocks of 32 or even 64 so the engine doesn't have to keep track of so many sectors being culled/rendered. I would test out different numbers with "stat all" on and see which gives you the biggest FPS boost. You can judge the performance by looking at the Terrain Render ms number as well.

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/LevelOptimizationTerrain.html

Your terrain is a little on the detailed side for a map of this size but you can't change that now so I would suggest using it to your advantage.

For example; create more shell holes with terrain, more small clumps in the street, alongside buildings, etc. This will make the map look more detailed and cost nothing more towards your performance.

You can also use terrain to reduce the number of brushes and statics in the map. For instance you could cover the base of some planted trees to get rid of the base tree-pot static or cover a sidewalk brush with terrain debris and then delete it. Lastly, 5 terrain layers is probably perfect for the map, no need to reduce those.

Ok, now onto the specifics. Let the fun begin! :eek:
(note: to find a specific actor use the "Search for Actors" function (binocular icon top left under "Build")

- Cull distances! One of the biggest things hurting your map at the moment is the lack of cull distances for high-poly statics! I know it's a ton of work to check each individual staticmesh and place a cull distance on it but this step will greatly improve the performance of the map, especially around the bridge area.

- Remove collision on all objects that will never collide with the player. This means building facades, high windows, emitters, bushes, etc! For example, find StaticMeshActor4670. This staticmesh doesn't have a proper collision model made for it which means collision is handled on a per-poly basis! That means all 3000+ triangles are being considered for collision when this particular mesh isn't even in the play area. On top of that this mesh doesn't have a cull distance set so players have to render it for extended distances. Set the cull distance to 14000 and all of the collision fields to False.

- Very few of your emitters have cull distances, make sure those are set! Also, your main smoke emitters have 20 particles each, you can get away with just 10.

- StaticMeshActor42 has an improper texture set to it.

- Delete StaticMeshActor16 (hidden under terrain).

- StaticMeshActor3100 and StaticMeshActor3098 are too high poly for outer meshes, use a 2D facade instead. There's also a ton of this type of mesh used outside the play area, I would replace them all with 2D meshes.

- Brush146 isn't needed, you can cover the exposed bits with terrain and delete it.

- StaticMeshActor1020 is embedded into the terrain too much, I would delete it or move it out so it can be used as cover.

- StaticMeshActor1649 are some stairs that lead to a blocking volume. Block the stairs with something.

- You have 48 SMs in your SkyBox, you should combine the building facades into one and turn the collision off.

- AntiPortalActor26 doesn't really cull anything so you could delete it. Same thing for AntiPortalActor14, AntiPortalActor3. All the rest look ok but you should really extend them downwards another 1000-2000 UU to make sure they occlude everything.

- Delete StaticMeshActor1231 (outside play area/hidden). Also, this mesh is very high poly and has an un-optimized collision mesh so you may want to replace it throughout the map.

- StaticMeshActor1488 is a tree type that is only used 4 times in the entire map. I would replace it with another, more commonly used tree.

- StaticMeshActor980 can't really be seen from the play area, you can delete it (along with a few surrounding statics).

- StaticMeshActor667 cannot be seen. Delete it and the 4 closest roof meshes.

- StaticMeshActor4286 and all matching statics (white factory door, used only 4 times in the map) should be deleted or replaced with more common statics.

- Find StaticMeshActor4304 This type of chair is only used 11 times, consider replacing it.

- Delete StaticMeshActor4270 (hidden).

- You've used a blank grey texture for the outer BSP walls that cannot be seen by players, which is good but there are still many that remain textured (including roofs and other areas). Remember to keep setting them to Unlit.

- Find StaticMeshActor952. This cart is only used twice in the map and is fairly high poly so I would delete/replace it.

- Find StaticMeshActor2583. Although these building arch statics can be seen from a great distance you can safely set the cull distance to 8000 or so because they blend with the grey concrete wall.

- Brush4343 and the two beside it could be combined into one without losing any detail.

- Go into Wireframe mode and take at look at the Hotel objective. You should notice just how many staticmeshes are being rendered. Be sure to put cull distances on all of them! Do the same for each building and your map will run a lot smoother. Someone looking at the Hotel from down the street shouldn't be forced to render all the decoration statics inside.

- Find StaticMeshActor877. The one side of this mesh is meant to be against a wall so make one out of BSP to cover the holes.

- Try to combine (preferred) or simplify the broken wood statics because you're using ton of them throughout the map. If players won't notice them they don't really need to be there (eg. StaticMeshActor532).

- Personally I would replace all of your portal textures with a solid grey/black texture instead of the transparent blue because it causes a lot of rendering issues/hall of mirror errors when viewing from the editor. Just personal preference I guess but if you want to change them simply select one and press Shift + T to select all the matching textures in the map.

- As I mentioned before you have a ton of textures and statics that are used only a few times within the map. Select a SM, right click > Select > Matching Static Meshes and see how many there are (F4). If it's less than 15 or so consider removing or replacing them with a more common mesh.

- The custom graffiti texture can be DXT1 with Alpha instead of DXT5. You also could have gotten away with it being 512x64 but no big deal.

- Use the "InUse" tab of the Texture Browser and look for textures with less than 15 instances in the map. Try to remove some that you don't need.

- Find Brush372. What's going on here? Replace all of these zone portal brushes with a single rectangle one. This will help cut down on total brush count and is probably the reason why this zone isn't working.

- Find Brush139. I would highly recommend not using this method/shape for BSP subtractions. This can cause BSP errors. Stick to using Spheres if possible.

- A lot of your buildings have a ton of separate window meshes and BSP cutouts. I suggest that you increase the destruction on these buildings so you don't need to have so many windows. You should also continue to combine the statics wherever possible. This is probably the biggest contributor to the bloated SM count in the map.

- I notice that none of your custom statics have collision meshes or proper Material usage, so I assume you don't have a 3D modeling program? I would strongly recommend getting access to Maya or Max because your building meshes are unoptimized. To see what I mean find StreetRubble1 and click the little + sign beside "Materials" at the very bottom of the SM Browser. You'll notice that there's 97 different materials being used (!!!) for that one mesh even though you're only using 2 texture types. This is a problem with creating combined statics from within the editor. Additionally all of your meshes are using per-poly collision instead of an optimized collision mesh (usually created in a 3D app).

- Find StaticMeshActor10049, only two instances. Remove/replace.

- Russian Spawn 7 is fairly exposed but even worse is the fact that there's absolutely no BSP occlusion. Always hide your spawns behind some form of BSP block so that AFK, newly spawned players, and idle vehicles are hidden from view of other players in the battlefield. I suggest making that small mound of rubble much larger and sticking a BSP block inside. Always make sure your spawns are behind BSP to help keep the network traffic down.

- Find Brush1309 and delete this group of brushes (hidden).

- A lot of your destroyed vehicle meshes are only used a few times. Try to remove some and reuse the rest as much as possible. To make each one look like a new mesh you can cover half of them with terrain, have one on fire, etc (for example there's 4 Tiger meshes on Danzig but nobody really notices because none of them really stick out).

- Delete StaticMeshActor2598 (hidden).

- Find Brush2423 and delete this group (hidden).

- Find StaticMeshActor1493. This rubble mesh is fairly high poly so you might want to replace it with the rubble pile from Leningrad (also has a better collision model).

- Find Brush2944. I can just imagine the nightmare this building must have been with all the BSP holes it probably created. You should turn this into a staticmesh asap because it's probably causing a few holes still (and using a lot of brushes).

- Find StaticMeshActor1513. All of these bushes should have shadows turned to False and set to Unlit/ScaleGlow 0.5 (or you can just try turning the AmbientGlow up to 30 or so). Either method should stop half of the leaves from being blackened.

- Find StaticMeshActor1477. This type of tree is quite high poly for such an open area, consider replacing it with a lower poly model if you can.

- Find Brush1493 and delete this group of brushes. I understand that you're using these to create statics from but they should be cleaned up once the map is ready to be released. If you need to save them just create a test map and transfer the brushes there.

- Find Brush3082. This group could be combined into a single brush. Turn them into Addition brushes and then use the intersect tool to create the builder brush shape.
Phew, ok I've got school tomorrow so I need to stop. This map really reminded me of what I went through to create Leningrad so I hope you can learn something from my mistakes. :o I believe Leningrad_Beta1 had about 10 000 individual statics mostly due to all those blasted windows! For your next beta version I would try to really focus on optimization because I think the gameplay is fairly good at this stage (even though I haven't played the map or RO much lately). I cannot stress how important combining statics and putting proper cull distances on everything is for optimization! This alone will increase the FPS and allow you to add more detail into the map.

If you want to decrease the size of the map and make it more enjoyable for players who have precaching turned off go through the map and remove any unnecessary textures/statics that are only used a few times. There's not really much sense in forcing everyone to load up a toilet mesh if it's only going to be used in two bathrooms off in some far corner of the map. ;)
I hope this helps. If you, or anyone else, have questions or want me to clarify something let me know. Obviously I didn't list everything here but this should give you a good idea of what to look out for when optimizing the map. Once again, great work on the map EvilHobo and sorry for creating a ton of new work for you to do.:)

[Rebel_US]

I made the mistake of trying to talk to you - as an adult - when you were with your 'boys' at the time - you can say whatever trips yer trigger about how 'glorious' your map is - I'm sure it's a "legend in your own mind" ...just as you are.

What I noticed about it - it's dying just as I predicted - few bother with it anymore...

What I said to TONE DOWN were the Swastikas all over the place - look, I know what you THINK you are - but you're not even close and have a long way to go...your map's offensive to alot of people..

And your lil 'alchoholic' remark - dude - ya need to take a look at the crowd you hang with..your starting to sound like another one of the Drones over there...

Personally - I'm still waiting for my 'soul crushing' - from all the bozos that ran away...I even show up sometimes looking for it - but all I see are COWARDS.

Thats ok though - you were simple to manipulate - just to slow too see who has the strings.

[Mike Nomad]

Reb, don't knock yourself out. Instead, dismiss from your life, mind and online persona those who do nothing but try to make you and many others miserable. By ignoring their mindless, inconsiderate escapades, you frustrate them in their efforts.

Its kinda like what we see when ppl say "please fix this" or "modify that" and all they get in return is a smug, totally negative, if not a total "talk down". It amazes me that some mappers have the gall to attempt to map and make trouble at the same time. They just don't get it. They're slowly killing the platform with their zany, arrogant BS.

People do not HAVE to play their maps or take their guff. The players and server admins pay the bills and keep the platform vibrant. I don't see that going on much longer with all the new games hitting the market. Of course, along with the new games come the developers who are eager to satisfy the users/consumers, not abuse them.

Yet the current "Prima-Donna" asshats are hell bent on pissing people off and trampling a once, very alive and highly enjoyable platform. For the time being, just sit back and watch the fools commit the cardinal sins of jerking the users, players and admins around. You will see the fruits of their efforts in the, now becoming crowded, FPS graveyard.

[Rebel_US]

I already have Mike - their lil groups are even resorting to PERSONAL attacks now on other forums, where - whoops - they got banned from, surprise, surprise.

This one was simple to figure out - and push his buttons, but as you say: I'm already where I was when I 1st started with him: miles ahead already. This is a simple turd speed bump in the road...

and...

I apologize for seeming to flame this bird, I learned along time ago: never argue with an INTRANET moron - everyone else can't tell WHO the moron is...

The map CONCEPT has potential - but this version isnt up to standards...I've checked a few times the past few days, it's barelly being played, and usually by just his lil group..who usually self-congrat each other any ways..

I'm cool with this, I've already got my fingers in too many pies to waste much more time on this.