RO-ValleyOfDeath_Beta_1

[Reservoir Dog]

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7484/vodtitlejz6.jpg

History:


The Carpatho-Dukla operation was began by the Soviet Army on September 8, 1944. The strategic Dukla Pass cuts through the Carpathian Mountains in Northwestern Slovakia. If wrestled from the Germans the Carpathian mountain passes (particularly Dukla Pass) would be opened to the Soviet military for a rapid descent from Poland into the Hungarian Plains. Yet the battle for control of this key region in Eastern Slovakia did not end with the capture of the Dukla Pass by the Soviets. Between Oct. 25-27, on the road between the Dukla Pass and Svidnik , in the farms and villages of the Kapisova Brook Valley, occurred one of the hardest fought tank battles of World War II, which then became the "Valley of Death."

On Oct. 19, 1944 General K.S. Moskalenko, the commander of the Soviet 38th Army and attached 1st Czechoslovak Army, received a directive from Marshal I.S. Konev, commander of the 1st Ukrainian Front, criticizing him for the recent unsuccessful attacks south of Dukla Pass and ordered him to prepare his next attack. Gen. Moskalenko assembled five rifle divisions (211th, 241st, 305th, 359th and 70th Guards) under 67th Rifle Corps and deployed 703 guns and mortars in the main breakthrough sector. The attack was supported by the remnants of the 4th Guards Tank Corps, (12th Guards Tank Brigade), 31st Tank Corp, and 1st Czechoslovakian Tank Brigade and was preceded by mine clearing of the key approaches. The attacking force was opposed by 1st Panzer Army's Armeegruppe “Heinrici” (1st, 8th, and 24th Panzer Divisions) three Sturmgeshutze (StuG) Brigades (300th, 301st, and 311th) and two recently replenished German Infantry Divisions (168th and 357th).

On October 6 following nearly 30 days of fighting in the Dukla Pass, German troops began to draw back 5 to 10 kilometers south to avoid the danger of encirclement. The battle in the "Valley of Death" began at 11:20 PM on Oct. 24th. The Allied attack was preceded by an 80 minute artillery barrage and aerial attacks. In the early hours of Oct. 25th, fog and heavy rainfall which had impeded the Allied advance began to subside. The Soviet attack was met by the German fire of 17 artillery and 20 mortar batteries which fired over 7,500 rounds that day. The Soviet in turn fired 32,000 artillery rounds and their Air Force, dropped 163 tons of bombs over the German positions.

The German resistance under the command of Generaloberst G. Heinrici, famous for his defensive tactics, was vigorous. At the village of Nizana Pisana the tanks of 12th Guards Tank Brigade encountered minefields and received heavy enemy fire. The brigade sustained heavy losses and after clearing the road of the mines, again moved forward. A heavy tank battle soon erupted. During the afternoon of Oct. 26, the 70th Guards Rifle Division, actively supported by tanks, captured Kapisova after heavy fighting, while the 305th Rifle Division took Dobroslava.

During the night of Oct 26 the German command reinforced the sector with the 168th Infantry Division. The Soviet attack on Oct. 27 again met fierce resistance from German armor, infantry, and artillery (7,500 rounds fired), along with repeated counterattacks that were supported by small groups of tanks (6 - 12). Despite heavy artillery (43,000 rounds) and aerial support the progress of 67th Rifle Corps was insignificant and the offensive was finally suspended. The Soviet advance after three days of near continuous fighting was only 6 km. During the less than 3 months of fighting in the Carpatho-Dukla operation, Allied forces suffered horrendous casualties. An estimated 84,000 Soviet soldiers were killed, wounded or missing, while the Czechoslovakians lost more than 6,000 soldiers. German casualties were estimated at 54,000 soldiers.

(History has been also included on the team selection page for both sides.)

Screenshots:


http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3634/ss9yj3.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss9yj3.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/109/ss8it6.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss8it6.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/360/ss10og6.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss10og6.jpg)
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7864/ss7pg9.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss7pg9.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5759/ss6bb8.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss6bb8.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2812/ss3hy1.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss3hy1.jpg)
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9452/ss1ty6.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss1ty6.jpg) http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5/ss4bk3.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss4bk3.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2736/ss2yf5.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss2yf5.jpg)


Team Load Outs:


Axis

Tanks: 2 Tiger 1s, 3 Panthers, 3 Panzer IV Hs, 2 Stugs, 2 Panzer IIIs.
Infantry: 3 Snipers, 2 MGers, 2 Anti-tanks, 2 Tank Commanders, Unlimited Tank Crew.
Transports: 4

Allies

Tanks: 4 IS2s, 4 T34s, 2 KV-1s, 2 SU-76s.
Infantry: 3 Snipers, 2 MGers, 2 Anti-tanks, 2 Tank Commanders, Unlimited Tank Crew.
Transports: 4

To clear buildings and other areas tanks can't reach, the tank personnel will have a choice of a SMG or rifle.

There are anti-tank weapons and radios located at the spawns, secondary objectives and the closest first objectives.

Requirements:

AHZ Guns installed on the server or the Tractorworks or Hubes Breakout maps already installed. http://www.after-hourz.com/index.php...l einfo&id=38 (http://www.after-hourz.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=35&func=fileinfo&id=38)

Though AB 2.XX mod is not required, it definitely adds to the experience of the map. Please try it with and without to judge for yourself. t=18029 (http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...ad.php?t=18029)http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...ad.php?t=18029 (http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18029)

Satchel pick-up mod is embedded into the map and no additional files are required.


"Thanks":


I have had alot of help, influences, resources, and support for this map. Sorry if this list is long.

Mike Nomad and the RGN servers for doing extensive alpha testing of this map. The RGN forums has helped kick ideas around and lots of feedback in the developing stages.

One Shot for being the official historian on this project and extensive map tester. He will answer any questions or comments on the history side.

AHZ guys for making the AT gun and release to the public.

Worluk for the satchel pick-up mod.

Drecks for some insightful texturing suggestions.

Amizaur for verifying the AT role.

Exocet for the tower suggestion and weblinks.

For all of the alpha map testers who participated and gave feedback/comments:

Hauptscharfuhrer,[FKR]_SnoopWolf, Part_No.427G-9, LDBlues, [RGN]_SPARTAN,CartoonJoe, CharlieDontSurf, Capt_Caveman, {CuF}Rough_Rider, Fletch, Heinz, Guderian(GER), [101.SS]CelticWereWolf, GillouH, Rapier_21, Nanner,<RTR>rec.Greylag,tsamptrail, [RGN]_HellHund (L_Dog),[RGN]_T3S (Tru3Slaughter),Drecks,Sgt. Drex, Scrappy, Oberstjohn, Horatio, Exocet & Amizaur.

Downloads:

Map file: http://files.filefront.com/7359837 (http://files.filefront.com/7359837)
Server uz2 file:http://files.filefront.com/7359852 (http://files.filefront.com/7359852)

Please let me know what you think. I encourage suggestions, comments, and feedback.

[Mike Nomad]

We just took the Cook's Tour and I must say, "Its nice!"


This will become a Map not to be forgotten or cast aside. :bravo:

[OneShot]

I had to ride around and check it out for myself, and brother does it look good now. We already know it plays Great, but now it even looks better if you can imagine that having seen the previous versions. Congratulation RD, for your first time mapping you have really created something special imo! :bravo: Now you finally have some time to create a cool signature, how about the Valley of Death map as a backdrop?

[Mike Nomad]

Check:

Barracks Doors
Tree Stumps
Floater by the BridgeElse, it looks and plays well.

[Reservoir Dog]

@One Shot, yeah I have some time to make a cool sig. I am partial to the third screenshot with a T34 on fire on top of the treed hill. It has lots of color and character. I believe I used it for the map selection screenshot too. That will probably be my sig. Good job on the history m8. I'm sure you read my last post of alpha testing thread but again great suggestion on the crators. Not only was it historical, it broke up the repetative landscape, added cover and a war-zone appearance.

@Mike, the few graphics tweaks will be taken care of. Thanks for posting so when I get to it I will remember. I will let beta 1 circulate for a month or two and see what is posted. I am hoping to release the final after that if no one finds more than a few graphic fixes. Thanks again.

[Mike Nomad]

OK, after careful review....

The Marathon went quite well... Our new RO muscle server behaved so well I'm going to build two more and put them in service. :)


The machines they replace will become player machines located "onsite".

In the meantime, very liittle can be said on the downside for Valley of Death.. very little.

It is a beautiful, very playable and highly entertaining RO custom map.


Reservoir Dog...... :bravo: For a job well done.

[Reservoir Dog]

I'm pleased with the performance with the map right now. I'm glad your getting good results on your improved servers Mike. I have seen VODB1 running on a few servers and it seems to attract players. The German 44 player slot server and FKMOD servers runs it alot. I have been pmed on RO forums that I shouldn't advertise a server on the map overhead, similar to advertising or recruiting a clan on someone else's server. I have given this alot of thought and there might be some truth to it. When alpha 1 was released it was a monster. I saw it pop up on a number of other servers despite the wrong overhead map. As soon as I released the next alphas with the new overhead map and credits it stopped other servers from playing it. That was a mistake on my part, as I should be trying to promote it as much as possible, even in the alpha stage.

I have received very little feedback on the RO forums except in other map's threads about the weather, tankers carrying rifles, and objectives. My expectation was that beta 1 would have exceeded the play time of alpha 1 by now but it hasn't yet (see the link to the tracking website below).

http://www.roscores.com/portal/desktops/finnishfrontlines/map_ranking.aspx

As I don't always play "nice nice" on the RO forums, I give my real opinion and don't want to hinder other servers from playing the map, I am going to erase the bottom part of the overhead map (arthur name as well) in the next beta version and stick to a more traditional map overhead that seems to be the standard of all maps out there. If this one thing allows more servers to play the map, then more exposure with be given to RGN servers and the map in the forums.

So far there has been just a few minor graphic glitches that need to be corrected. The next beta will have bots support, more optimizations, and graphic glitches fixed. I will try to improve the mountain range encircling the map. I might play around with the end game screen to put that picture of the monument in, if I can make it look good.

[Mike Nomad]

I have been pmed on RO forums that I shouldn't advertise a server on the map overhead, similar to advertising or recruiting a clan on someone else's server.


When they stop advertising specialty servers and TEST servers for all other purposes and Special clan competition servers all over the place - repeatedly - then I'll first listen to this sort of spitefull jealous garbage. After all, RGN was/is a TEST server for VOD.

Anyone who would do such a despicable thing is way out of line. If I were you, I'd ignore such a rotten pm. Its your map, thus, its your decision. I'd love to know who would do such a rotten thing. I must admit though, I am hurt by such slimeball tactics.

[OneShot]

When they stop advertising specialty servers and TEST servers for all other purposes and Special clan competition servers all over the place - repeatedly - then I'll first listen to this sort of spiteful jealous garbage. After all, RGN was/is a TEST server for VoD

Mike;
You make a valid point and on the other hand I can understand RD's apprehension with naming names/clans/servers in his final versions. Obviously its Reservoir Dogs call and I don't disagree with it, but we are talking about a Beta 1 release, his work in progress as it were. So for RD to give "thanks" for assistance in his Beta 1 release in my mind was a gracious and appropriate demonstration on his part to those he felt assisted him in some way getting the map ready for publication and it speaks to RD's character imo. Don't allow anyone to give you gruff about it RD, its your map after all!!!I can't believe anyone would call you on it or even insinuate they would not load the Valley of Death Beta 1 on their servers because of it. How small and petty.

Talking about the map : in the barracks when you first enter on the right side behind the first set of tarp covered crates is a "floating mortar shell", you may want to check it out prior to Beta 2 release. No big deal, just wanted to let you know I saw it tonight in case you hadn't(see attachments below, first pic I'm standing, 2nd I'm kneeling)). Posted this at the RO forums as well, publicity is publicity, and it may help by talking about the map (even glitches) to get people curious enough to give the map a play, who knows?

I can't speak for other servers, but again all night long on the RGN server the Valley of Death map was loaded with a bunch of different clans (181TB, LINE, etc., etc...). Also had trouble sleeping tonight, logged on RO and found 30 out of 32 players (I made 31) playing Valley of Death Beta 1 on the <RTR> Right to Rebel server at 2:00 am! Your map is getting played my friend, be assured of that RD! I think now with so many maps out there, during a servers normal rotation, most maps may not come up as much. A lot of players have their favorites that they feel they are good at or really enjoy and they vote those maps often to reload on vote enabled servers. Heck I still have not had a chance to play all of the recent contest maps yet, as well of some of the soon to be released versions by TWI! Give it time RD, it will catch on imo, and catch on big!

Just a suggestion (and may be a bad one) but RD if you feel your map is not getting the look it deserves I would suggest you check out the various servers/clans/ forums and introduce/post the map to them personally (marketing my friend).

Also CelticWereWolf was on the server in the Valley of Death most of the night and he asked me to thank you for including him and his brother under the alpha tester section of your maps intro to the RO community. However, he and his brother Snoop_Wolf not longer use the prefix "101 SS" any longer. They now use [FKR] as their prefix. If in your spare time (I know, what is that right?) you could edit their names for them here at RGN and at the RO forums I'm sure they would appreciate the gesture on your part.

[OneShot]

As I don't always play "nice nice" on the RO forums, I give my real opinion and don't want to hinder other servers from playing the map, I am going to erase the bottom part of the overhead map (authors name as well) in the next beta version and stick to a more traditional map overhead that seems to be the standard of all maps out there.

RD;
I would suggest you add the "RO Valley of Death" to your signature then at least, as most mappers do. Credit where credit is due my friend imo!

[Mike Nomad]

Mike;
You make a valid point and on the other hand I can understand RD's apprehension with naming names/clans/servers in his final versions. Obviously its Reservoir Dogs call and I don't disagree with it, but we are talking about a Beta 1 release, his work in progress as it were. So for RD to give "thanks" for assistance in his Beta 1 release in my mind was a gracious and appropriate demonstration on his part to those he felt assisted him in some way getting the map ready for publication and it speaks to RD's character imo. Don't allow anyone to give you gruff about it RD, its your map after all!!!I can't believe anyone would call you on it or even insinuate they would not load the Valley of Death Beta 1 on their servers because of it. How small and petty.

I agree, such actions are very petty and small minded. When you look through the RO forums and truly get to understand the politics and "Pecking Order" you begin to understand why this happened. That PM should and must be ignored if only to maintain RD's self respect and heighten the respect of others for RD.

I still say RD should stand his ground and show them what independence is all about. The "old line" is beginning to apply pressure for RD to "comply and get in line".. I hope he instead remains independent and free thinking. It what the RO platform needs.

Everything is too much of the "same old-same old" RD and his creativity and originality in all respects is like a breath of fresh air, like stepping out from under a wet blanket. The map itself is a great success already. I have yet to find anyone, who is willing to express an honest opinion, that doesn't like Valley of Death and continually come back for more.

Valley of Death will long be fondly remembered and repeatedly played because its a great map. The map created by and from a newcomer that stopped all the nitpickers cold , right in their tracks. A map that is so entertaining that folks are compelled to play it again and again.

RD, you caught the "old line" in RO off guard and they are still stunned from it. The enthusiastic RO Players and Admins, on the other hand, love Valley of Death because;

for Admins, it makes their servers busy.
for players.... to put it plain and simple, VOD is a kick-arse map.
for all of us its a repeat play, highly entertaining map.Stand your ground - remain the free thinking independent mapper you came on the scene as. Your concepts, attitude and map(s) have proven many of the points we've made over the past months about what makes a map popular. Don't allow your self to be forced "into step" with the "old line".... Let them LEARN from you, it will help the entire RO platform. Right now, Valley of Death is getting more action on the TOP SERVERS in the RO platform than even the "favored" servers. Please, leave the credits in place. People will respect you for being a leader, not a follower.

VOD is well on its way to being among the top popular maps in RO if not the most popular.

That, in itself, says everything. :wink2:

Please, pay no mind to the sourgrapes backstabbers.

[Mike Nomad]

Ya know, the more I think about this ... the worse it becomes.

For someone to PM RD with a spiteful dig to hurt RGN and intimidate RD is truly awful. But as others have mentioned to me its not to be unexpected "after all, they have so little to complain about in Valley of Death, that all they had left ..was a spiteful dig".

[OneShot]

Ya know, the more I think about this ... the worse it becomes.

For someone to PM RD with a spiteful dig to hurt RGN and intimidate RD is truly awful. But as others have mentioned to me its not to be unexpected "after all, they have so little to complain about in Valley of Death, that all they had left ..was a spiteful dig".

I did not mention this fact in my post, but clearly you hit nail on the head Mike and I agree with your analogy 100%. It was not about RD, but people taking a cheap shot at RGN and using the Valley of Death map to do it! What they fail to see or understand is the respect this site has achieved for expressing their honest opinions and willingness to question in an open forum that which does not seem right. Just look at the threads to see how often top TWI staff visit and post here!

[Reservoir Dog]

Thanks for the support and the encouragement. I guess I needed that. During the beta's I will definitely keep the same overhead map. I shouldn't let others influence me so but I am still fairly new to the RO world and haven't sorted out the "old line" of thinking yet (but I'm getting there). It's just I don't see any responses to the VODB1 thread and only a few servers running the map. Of course I have gotten more feedback and suggestions from RGN forums but expected a little more reception on RO's. I guess it was easy for me to take a negative comment and apply it to something I was discouraged with. I have had no idea the politics involved in this community. I don't know if it was a sign or not, but I saw 4 separate servers running VOD this morning including RGN. They were all about half or more full. I needed that to know the map is slowly getting out there. I will disregard the pm.

Good suggestion on the marketing One Shot. I should have thought of that. I might even get a more candid opinions than on the RO forum. I will change the clan tags since this was a special request. In the future, we shouldn't accept these requests because that was their name at the time of the alpha testings and it would be time consuming keeping up with name and clan changes of players.

[OneShot]

Thanks RD, my bad, only CelticWereWolf is [FK] now, his brother Snoop_Wolf is still 101SS! No big deal either way, don't think it really maters with Beta 2 pending. 32 players at 2:00 am last night on RTR server, not bad I think! It is catching on and gonna steam roll!

[Reservoir Dog]

Clan tags are updated on all threads.

[OneShot]

RD;
You probably have already discovered this but just in case I have found another one of pesky "floating trees." Just outside of the entrance to the Barracks Bridge going towards the Ammo Bunker there is a cluster of three trees near the water, one appears to be floating.

Also been thinking about the battle damage a bit. This scenario takes place after the Allies have taken a small village and are advancing towards another village thru a valley of rural farm lands. So I do not know that I would put a lot more damaged buildings on your map. Perhaps a burned out barn, or small farm house severely damaged (just some bricks, perhaps a chimney still standing , remnants of a foundation and a larger burned mark on the ground or burned logs (from the roof structure) on the ground would be more than enough imo. I would not go overboard with adding additional structures unless they were of a military (perhaps some small trench works, foxholes) or rural farm nature (knocked down grain silo, destroyed out shed) again imo.

The logical place I feel for this would be between the Church and the German spawn area on the wings near the mountains where there is a great deal of open space. Hopefully this area would not result in less performance of an already well performing map! Few more shell craters would work as well, but not suggesting you make it look like the moon! At this battle the artillary was used to soften up the appraches, or defend against advancing units on these approaches, and to knock out key defenses. They did not "carpet bomb" the entire area. Perhaps concentrate on putting craters on the sides of the roads would be logical, and around the military structures (Bunker, Barracks, Ammo Depot). Of course collateral damage was inevitable considering the technology of artillery and air strikes during WWII, the rounds frequently did not land where intended! But I'd stay away from the Farm and the Church just the same. Just a few shell craters more here and there is all I would recommend. Don't want to impede the flow of the map with too many obstructions.

Of course roughing up the existing structures, Church, Bunkers, Farm, and Barracks, Depot would add a lot to the war ravaged looks, but not to the extent of detracting from the overall performance (FPS, lag, etc...) of the map. Maybe a whole in the roof of the Farm ( I just contradicted myself huh?how dumb) would add a lot as well as let the Germans faust a tank or two when they are cornered, as well as serve as a spotting location for Allied artillerymen? Just throwing some ideas out. Maybe some bullet holes on the military structures, or part of the corner damaged by shell fire would suffice. The hard part is going to be up to you, crafting these additions to your map! I know it will not be easy.

I must have never have noticed it before but when you follow a tank out of the Russian spawn on the far right thru the large water puddle the tracks throw up a "rooster tail" of water off each of the treads, that is so cool looking! Nice touch Reservoir Dog, never noticed that before! Does that work on all the standing water on the map? I love those little details, really adds to the realism of the map!

[Reservoir Dog]

You like the water splashes? Especially with tanks. Each little pond has a different "depth" of water in it and each reacts differently to a tank driving through. Some splash up, some splash away. One of thoughs little touches I wasn't sure anyone would see.

I can add more craters around the primary tank roads and military structures. As you have noticed, some of the craters are much bigger and can actually trap a tank. I hate seeing maps that have the exact same crater over and over. I need opinions, do they stay that way, or change them. If I add more craters with the tank stoppers, I think tankers will be swerving around avoiding all of them instead of looking ahead for enemies. I can make the tank stoppers more shallow and still be big but not trap tanks. I see the "One Shot" craters seem to be popular with infantry.

Adding ruins and parts of buildings is no big deal. I would use a number of premade static meshes in RO.

Adding damage to existing structures in going to require more effort. I haven't started playing with an outside 3-d modeling program yet. I will have to play with brushes, meshes, and textures in the editor to get it to look right. As you can tell with the barn, I still need work on damaged buildings. Putting holes into things is no problem. Getting the burnt or damaged color onto the texture is tricky part. And using meshes with brushes, debris with a hole in the wall, is tricky to get lighting correct for both. Also punching holes into brushes can always bring about the BSP holes that cause great havoc in maps and do weird things. BSP holes have been my biggest problem working this brushes (that's what made the church wall kill players in Farm b4). Sorry to go into all this but let's just say its time-consuming to make it look right and not cause problems with the map. I am getting better with brushes so it should take less time and have less problems.

For the farmhouse you are thinking a hole in the roof over the leftmost doorway? A sniper, artillery, pf hole like in the barn overlooking the fields and church area? I was thinking a hole on top of the bunker might be cool. A player on the roof could drop down inside the building, and someone inside could throw a grenade onto the roof at someone. Would need concrete debris underneath the hole. Not sure exactly what that would look like.

Since we aren't alpha testing anymore, I could post some pics in this thread as I go and everyone can post feedback here. We'll see how that works.

[Mike Nomad]

You like the water splashes? Especially with tanks. Each little pond has a different "depth" of water in it and each reacts differently to a tank driving through. Some splash up, some splash away. One of those little touches I wasn't sure anyone would see.

From a distance.... like the hill by the barracks, it looks more like a bubble than anything else.

I can add more craters around the primary tank roads and military structures. As you have noticed, some of the craters are much bigger and can actually trap a tank. I hate seeing maps that have the exact same crater over and over. I need opinions, do they stay that way, or change them. If I add more craters with the tank stoppers, I think tankers will be swerving around avoiding all of them instead of looking ahead for enemies. I can make the tank stoppers more shallow and still be big but not trap tanks. I see the "One Shot" craters seem to be popular with infantry.

It doesn't necessarily have to be "craters"... the tank traps are a PIA they should be navigable. Shell holes, pock marks, scorched areas, wall damage with resultant rubble, the barn's roof damage could be "smoking"... shell craters are much shallower than bomb craters... I mentioned "war damage and destruction" back in the Sturgisov days and it brought about the Tank Traps. I asked for Artillery Barrage shell craters not Tank Killers. Please, make those things navigable, more shallow... when the map's busy those things are quite frustrating. Besides the one adjacent to the Abandoned Bunker is far too close and deep for the bunker to not have damage there also.

For the farmhouse you are thinking a hole in the roof over the leftmost doorway? A sniper, artillery, pf hole like in the barn overlooking the fields and church area? I was thinking a hole on top of the bunker might be cool. A player on the roof could drop down inside the building, and someone inside could throw a grenade onto the roof at someone. Would need concrete debris underneath the hole. Not sure exactly what that would look like.

I'd leave the farmhouse alone.. after all, there were always areas that survived the damaging effects of war... concentrate the damage on the points in the map that are heavily transversed and likely to be subjected to heavy battle scarring. The broken trees I pointed out to you would be perfect in the next version for showing war torn damage. Add areas of scorched earth along with burnt trees.. trees blown over cracked away from but not broken off completely from the stumps. A few trees devoid of all leaves, just barren, broken smoking branches are ideal for showing battle effects.

The areas between the Church and the Abandoned Bunker on the Church side of road.... could use a few heavily damaged buildings, artillery shell holes, destroyed vehicles, etc.. Less collision brushes would be nice too.

Since we aren't alpha testing anymore, I could post some pics in this thread as I go and everyone can post feedback here. We'll see how that works.

Good Idea... The map itself offers great gameplay and diversity in tactics. The server was busy, night and day, for the full weekend.

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

I was reading the "History' at the beginning of the Valley of Death map and found three errors that if possible with the next Beta release would like to see corrected/edited? All are for the Axis (German) section. The first mistake is in the middle of the first paragraph where I mentioned under the infantry units involved the 357th. At the end of that same paragraph I again mention the 357th as one of two divisions that were replenished prior to the battle. Please delete the first mention of the 357th where it is listed with all the others infantry divisions, and leave the last refrence to the 357th in as being one of two recently replenished Infantry divisions.

The 2nd mistake is in the middle of the 2nd paragraph three sentences down. It states : The German defensive strategy was to cut off the penetration corridors and then would frequently attackED the Soviet flanks with small group of tanks (6 - 12) accompanied by infantry. In this sentence the words attackED should be shortened to just attack and the word group should be groupS.

The third edit I would request you make is at the end of the Axis history where it mentions the fact that the Germans suffered 54,000 soldiers (KIA, MIA, WIA). This is misleading and one could infer this was the casualties for just the three day battle in the Valley where in fact it is for the entire Carpatho-Dukla campaign (as was stated for the Allies at the end of their history). Please just add at the very end after (KIA, MIA, WIA) of that last sentence the following : during the Carpatho-Dukla campaign

OK RD, delete the 357th from the first paragraph middle , remove the ED from attacked and add an S to group in the 2nd paragraph and then add those 4 words to the very end of the last paragraph. I feel bad I did not catch those sooner. Hope it is not to much of a pain to edit my screw ups, really sorry about that RD.

Also, how do you feel about removing from the beginning 1st paragraphs' German/English reference (Tank) from the 1st Panzer (Tank) Army? I do not like it the more I look at it! I think anyone playing RO would know that Panzer means Tank, right? I think I would delete the (Tank) reference but would leave in the other German/English reference Armeegruppe (Army Group) Heinrici? What do you think?

[Reservoir Dog]

From a distance.... like the hill by the barracks, it looks more like a bubble than anything else.


Fine. The water in that particular pond does spring up a little higher than I would like. But you know what, its original and you don't see water flaring up from a tank running through it on most maps. I will drop the flaring water a little so I guess it will look like a small bubble next beta.


It doesn't necessarily have to be "craters"... the tank traps are a PIA they should be navigable.

I'm sorry if I am trying to make original concepts in the map that are such pain in the a$$es. I was responding to One Shot's suggestion for infantry protection. Sure I can decorate the map all day with war damage. I am more concern with playability of the map. Infantry can sit in shallow craters but still can be ran over with tanks. I wanted to try something a little different that would offer infantry a safe zone from being ran over. There aren't that many craters in the map altogether. And there are only 3 tank killers. This concept is the same with trenches, once a tank drops in its done. I wanted to try something new and not seen on other maps, sorry if this was a pain in the a$$ to you.


shell craters are much shallower than bomb craters..

Yeah, I know. The history had both and both are represented in the map.


I mentioned "war damage and destruction" back in the Sturgisov days and it brought about the Tank Traps. I asked for Artillery Barrage shell craters not Tank Killers.

I remember you mentioning it. What Sturgisov was lacking was history. The history has provided a reason for the battle damage and that is why I am trying to accommodate it with more cover for infantry.

I also remember you saying that changing the weather would mess up the map. I remember you saying that adding AT role would screw up the map. I remember you saying adding the Stugs (which was a big part of the history) would screw it up. I remember you saying adding more tanks to the Russian side than there would be players to man them would balance the gameplay. Don't get me wrong, you have made some suggestions that have helped this map, like many people have, and I do appreciate it. But I don't take advice blindly either. Whether this map is a success or not, I am the map creator. It's my final decisions that get incorporated into the map and at my timetable. War damage is nice eye-candy and will be added towards to last beta. The craters are a part of the gameplay for infantry and tanks. That is why its in the first beta.

I don't want to be or anything I make be a pain in the a$$ for anyone. If my efforts here are unwanted please let me know.

One Shot, I will make the corrections to the history. Thanks for being diligent to reviewing and revising it. Constructive comments goes a long way for me.

[OneShot]

You like the water splashes? Especially with tanks. Each little pond has a different "depth" of water in it and each reacts differently to a tank driving through. Some splash up, some splash away. One of thoughts little touches I wasn't sure anyone would see.

I did notice it and I do like it a lot! The type of thing that makes your map unique and distinctive from others imo!

I can add more craters around the primary tank roads and military structures. As you have noticed, some of the craters are much bigger and can actually trap a tank. I hate seeing maps that have the exact same crater over and over. I need opinions, do they stay that way, or change them. If I add more craters with the tank stoppers, I think tankers will be swerving around avoiding all of them instead of looking ahead for enemies. I can make the tank stoppers more shallow and still be big but not trap tanks. I see the "One Shot" craters seem to be popular with infantry..


I also do not like the "cookie cutter" effect all over a map. Personally buy looking at a crater I can tell if I can get through it or must drive around it. Believe me I have had to learn this the hard way! Part of being a tanker is negotiating the battlefield. When the server gets loaded quite often players will double up and then driving and gunning would not be a big deal right? RD this is a combined arms map correct? Then imo the infantry deserves a fair chance against the armor across the map. If you read the history this was the first time the Germans used Panzerfausts in large quantities and with great success. With this in mind I would suggest a combination of the two types of craters, with in reason of course and without effecting the current game play. Like I said before I would not like to see the map looking like a moon scape, but imo there is still room as it is currently configured to add some more shell/bomb craters. And for the infantry I would leave the "one shot" craters, and to make the tankers happy how about a few craters that a tank can get "Hull Down" in and then extract itself. I believe this could possibly make some of the thinner/lesser gunned tanks more desirable from a players perspective, again all just imo.

Adding ruins and parts of buildings is no big deal. I would use a number of premade static meshes in RO.

Go for it RD! IMO it will only enhance the map, again with in reason. As I stated before this current scenario of your map is in a rural farm area between the villages.

Adding damage to existing structures in going to require more effort. I haven't started playing with an outside 3-d modeling program yet. I will have to play with brushes, meshes, and textures in the editor to get it to look right. As you can tell with the barn, I still need work on damaged buildings. Putting holes into things is no problem. Getting the burnt or damaged color onto the texture is tricky part. And using meshes with brushes, debris with a hole in the wall, is tricky to get lighting correct for both. Also punching holes into brushes can always bring about the BSP holes that cause great havoc in maps and do weird things. BSP holes have been my biggest problem working this brushes (that's what made the church wall kill players in Farm b4). Sorry to go into all this but let's just say its time-consuming to make it look right and not cause problems with the map. I am getting better with brushes so it should take less time and have less problems.

Experiment, try a few different things/approaches, if you are not happy with the results, don't use it. Seek some advice from other mappers or TWI devs. What do you have to loose. They all were in your shoes at one time or another creating their initial map, right?

For the farmhouse you are thinking a hole in the roof over the leftmost doorway? A sniper, artillery, pf hole like in the barn overlooking the fields and church area? I was thinking a hole on top of the bunker might be cool. A player on the roof could drop down inside the building, and someone inside could throw a grenade onto the roof at someone. Would need concrete debris underneath the hole. Not sure exactly what that would look like..

Yes I was, just like the barn. Does not have to be as cavernous as the barn, just realistic. Perhaps a stray tank AP round had hit the roof of the Farm as opposed to a mortar, or arty round? You already have access to the attic area crafted into the farm house, why not utilize it more? Damage would not have to be significant to enable a infantry man some more involvement in the game play there. As well as capping then he would aslo have greater ability to defend this objective. I like the idea of getting the infantry more involved in the play of this map. In order to accomplish this RD you are going to have to give this a lot of thought as to not shift the balance of the roles (infantry-AT vs tankers/ snipers vs infantry) from one extreme to the other. I like the idea of a hole in the roof of the bunker as well! It does sound neat and add to the game play.

I also like the idea of during the initial map start for a random arty barrage just outside of the spawns on both sides to put the players in the true feel of the battle right from the start. Seems like most beginning of maps are more like a race to get going before the opponents jump off first. By making the arty strike random also if a player choose to attempt initally to get out quickly frontally or via the flanks he may or may not succeed? Sometimes fortune favors the brave! Just as idea RD.

Latter down the line when your map is released if the community is looking for a basic armor only map then all you would have to do is resort back to an earlier beta, rename it and release it as an armor only map. Similar to what ViViD is doing with his Muddy Tigers map imo. It seems to me, and I certainly am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, the taste in RO is more for a true combined arms map, along the lines as Gorlitz or some of the other better recent contest maps.

As far as the Valley of Death map RD, keep working/experimenting with your work. Is that not what Beta is about ? Making corrections, refining, tweaking, and polishing the map while all the while checking game play/balance until you are satisfied. There is no race to finish, although I know you are anxious with it being this close to completion. Many maps got to Beta 4 or 5 before their final release. Try some things, release another Beta, if you are not satisfied, rework it and release another Beta until you are satisfied.

RD you have been great as far as accepting suggestions, feedback, criticisms, compliments absolutely everything concerning your map, but as I keep saying over and over, this is your map, you have to make the call concerning all content included in your map. I am no expert, but I know what I like, and I really like the Valley of Death map a whole lot. I liked the Farm map also long before I even got involved with you on the Valley map. I believe your map is really gonna turn some heads in the community when your final version is release and hits the servers! I know it is not easy, but keep up the good work my friend.

[Mike Nomad]

I don't want to be or anything I make be a pain in the a$$ for anyone. If my efforts here are unwanted please let me know.

Rd, everything I have presented has been of a highly constructive nature. For you to infer anything to the contrary is worse than a stab in the back. I took my own impressions and combined that information with the impressions of many players which I obtained whilst playing in the map through all its iterations, from Sturgisov Farm to Valley of Death, the hours and hours of dedicated server time for numerous Marathon Weekends and continued spotlighted play through week days. Nothing is contrived, imaginary or meant to be "mean". Every split second of time was given without any IOU's... it was done to help.

The "vehicle splash", as you call it, has been tried before in an Arad variation... and failed for the very same reason, bubbles around the vehicles. The "tank traps" are truly akin to "dragon's teeth" and nondestructive barriers... to a Tanker they are a PIA. That's a fact and there is no other way to put it.

I saw a number of Russian Tankers who, after having left their spawn, successfully navigated over the big hill through the maze of trees, only to come out the other side and get caught in the "Tank Trap". Needless to say they were not happy. Nor would I be. But like you say, its your map you do with it as you see fit.

Please, understand this, you owe me nothing for all the server time and play time spent troubleshooting the maps. I did that because I wanted to help. I wanted to ensure that the players got the very best entertainment possible. I feel the best way to achieve that is to assist the mappers in attaining the three big factors;

Playability
Balance
EntertainmentAfter all, RO is the best FPS we have "out there". We are headed into the summer months and school's out havoc.... Quality maps = quality time spent playing RO.

At this point in time, all I ask is a truthful explanation for the totally outrageous response and obvious well aimed digs. Who were you trying to impress? Why such a 360? Just remember "fair weather friends" are not friends at all, they are only acquaintances that wind up being "users and abusers".

My suggestions are/were all from the heart with genuine concern for both the future of the map and yourself. For you to come down on me like a ton of bricks throws up flags all over the place that "somebody got to you". Well, that's fine too. At my age, nothing surprises me anymore.

[Reservoir Dog]

My comments were a little harsh and possibly a little out of line. I do appreciate every thing you have done to help this project. I do consider you a truthful, well-meaning individual and that is something hard to find these days.

It's not that your comments aren't constructive, it's the wording that's being used. In my opinion, we have gone from kicking ideas around in a friendly open atmosphere to a different style. Your comments recently could be looked at as being ultimatums. "This would totally ruin a map," is not a constructive statement. It puts me, and others, in a defensive posture immediately. It's undertone is saying that I don't know what I'm doing and shouldn't be trusted to make decisions about a map. It basically eliminates options. If I proceed with an idea, or variant, then I will think the map is ruined for you. I know that's not what your truly saying but wording is important. It's not what you say, but how you say it. When I said that I wasn't going to balance the map based on the AB mut, your reply was it will be totally unbalanced with it. I remember my explanation was very defensive as I had to explain that it had to work on servers without AB. Again, I was put on the defensive.

I seem to be on the defensive alot. That's not where I should be at. And that's not where we started. When I get posts saying "This is a pain in the a$$, fix it," or "I asked for this a long time ago, and THIS is what I got," tends to put me in an even more defensive stance. I don't like being defensive all the time. Almost every time I join a game of VOD (mostly on other servers) I get hit with the "why did you do that?"s or the "that's stupid, you should do that"s or they are pmed to me.

I have read your discussions recently on Hube's Breakout, Gorlitz and Orel and I know that's your style. To me, there is a difference from being "honest" and being "brutally honest". Brutally honest can sometimes be interpreted as not constructive. And sometimes you have to think which one is going to be more effective. I agreed with your points on the silly doll on Hube's, but I think it could have been handled more effectively. Vivid is not longer visiting this site for feedback, and I consider that to be very unfortunate since he is a talented mapper, a "good guy" at one point and I would like to see more mappers as part of this community. You have to agree that it is tragic that Vivid interpreted brutal honesty as not constructive.

I would like us to go back to a friendly open atmosphere. I guess where we go from here is up to you. It could be that I am overly sensitive about the map sometimes and the last post just set me off. If you felt it was a stab at you I apologize. I harbor no ill feelings and no one has got to me.

[Mike Nomad]

My comments were a little harsh and possibly a little out of line. I do appreciate every thing you have done to help this project. I do consider you a truthful, well-meaning individual and that is something hard to find these days.I'm glad you saw the harshness, I attributed that to some outside influence that hit you at a bad time. I actually am greatly relieved as I regard you as a friend and truly had no desire to upset you in any way. I appreciate your candor and fully understand.

It's not that your comments aren't constructive, it's the wording that's being used. In my opinion, we have gone from kicking ideas around in a friendly open atmosphere to a different style. Your comments recently could be looked at as being ultimatums. "This would totally ruin a map," is not a constructive statement. It puts me, and others, in a defensive posture immediately. It's undertone is saying that I don't know what I'm doing and shouldn't be trusted to make decisions about a map. It basically eliminates options. If I proceed with an idea, or variant, then I will think the map is ruined for you. I know that's not what your truly saying but wording is important. It's not what you say, but how you say it. When I said that I wasn't going to balance the map based on the AB mut, your reply was it will be totally unbalanced with it. I remember my explanation was very defensive as I had to explain that it had to work on servers without AB. Again, I was put on the defensive.

I am not a politician or diplomat. What you see is what you get... I am truthful, to the point and honest. I never once said anything "would totally ruin a map" Its not there I just went back and re-read all that I had to say.
It doesn't necessarily have to be "craters"... the tank traps are a PIA they should be navigable. Shell holes, pock marks, scorched areas, wall damage with resultant rubble, the barn's roof damage could be "smoking"... shell craters are much shallower than bomb craters... I mentioned "war damage and destruction" back in the Sturgisov days and it brought about the Tank Traps. I asked for Artillery Barrage shell craters not Tank Killers. Please, make those things navigable, more shallow... when the map's busy those things are quite frustrating. Besides the one adjacent to the Abandoned Bunker is far too close and deep for the bunker to not have damage there also. That's exactly what I had to say. IMHO, nothing confrontational was made as I illustrated my findings and offered facts and help.

As for the AB Mutator, I was trying to tell you that the influence of the AB mut was inconsequential as far as the map was concerned. Far too many people are reading much more into the capabilities of AB than what it really does. AB simply enhances/corrects or fixes errors in the specifications for all the armor including penetration, trajectory and impact power. There is nothing AB does that can effect or influence the outcome, balance, playability or entertainment factor of any map. If anything it will enhance a map, not unduly influence a map.

I seem to be on the defensive alot. That's not where I should be at. And that's not where we started. When I get posts saying "This is a pain in the a$$, fix it," or "I asked for this a long time ago, and THIS is what I got," tends to put me in an even more defensive stance. I don't like being defensive all the time. Almost every time I join a game of VOD (mostly on other servers) I get hit with the "why did you do that?"s or the "that's stupid, you should do that"s or they are pmed to me.

Hold on.... I said it was a PIA - I did NOT say fix it in a demanding manner. And yes, I asked for more damage back in the Sturgisov days.. because I saw a need for it. Because you get roughed up elsewhere doesn't mean its coming from us or that retaliation against us is in order. I have told you a number of times that you are/were the new mapper on the scene and that you will encounter a great deal of "resistance" (to put it mildly) from the old school types who think every map should be a certain way with certain features and attributes. Those are the ones to either finesse or castigate and then ignore but certainly, not your friends.

I have read your discussions recently on Hube's Breakout, Gorlitz and Orel and I know that's your style. To me, there is a difference from being "honest" and being "brutally honest". Brutally honest can sometimes be interpreted as not constructive. And sometimes you have to think which one is going to be more effective. I agreed with your points on the silly doll on Hube's, but I think it could have been handled more effectively. Vivid is not longer visiting this site for feedback, and I consider that to be very unfortunate since he is a talented mapper, a "good guy" at one point and I would like to see more mappers as part of this community. You have to agree that it is tragic that Vivid interpreted brutal honesty as not constructive.

In reality, I've seem mappers come and go like "ships passing in the night". Those who cannot understand or tolerate truth and honesty soon fall by the wayside because if they come here and do not like the bare facts, they'll get it much worse elsewhere and usually heavily exaggerated.... from immature sarcastic, emotional smart mouths.

In regards to Gorlitz, I made mention of the Russians steamrolling the Germans in the very beginning right after it was released. I pointed out holes in the map and the awful linear play. I was blown-off. If you read the entire Gorlitz thread, you 'll see it all if its not been deleted, edited or whatever. One thing cannot be denied .. I was correct in my assesment of Gorlitz as many of the added opinions have indicated. I might politely add, that because every word I have to say is seemingly scrutinized, I make damn sure what I have to say is accurate , fluff-less and to the point.

As for ViViD, if he chooses to shun this site let him tell me so. That type of behavior is totally out of character for him. I was truthful with him. Again, I am NOT a politician, I was asked to look a map over and report on my findings. I did so. Luther, his new sidekick, didn't like what I had to say and blew a gasket and a coupla fuses. As far as I am concerned, Hubes will die a horrible death if all the faults are not fixed because the map is full of obvious errors. That Exorcist doll thing was/is ridiculous and just added insult to injury. The thing that would be TRAGIC is if.. ViViD allowed EMOTION to cloud his good judgment and sway his normally excellent ability to interpret and use worthwhile to the point, information.

I am not a politician and will never be one... I see no reason to have to sugar coat constructive criticisms of anything. Especially when they are requested. Plain and simple, I bust my arse to make sure what I offer is accurate and concise. Is there any better way to help?

As for Orel... I stated my observations and made a damn good case for supporting them. Now, due to the riigidity of historical accuracy, its up to the users. They will vote AYE or NAY by the amount of time they play the map and repeat play Orel Enhaced. I suspect that the variation called "Orel of Gentlemen beta3" will far surpass any historically accurate but crippled version including the original and follow-ups. People want to play the game not be force fed history lessons. Some day, those who adhere to making actual gameplay historically accurate will wake up and smell the coffee.

I would like us to go back to a friendly open atmosphere. I guess where we go from here is up to you. It could be that I am overly sensitive about the map sometimes and the last post just set me off. If you felt it was a stab at you I apologize. I harbor no ill feelings and no one has got to me.

I see we want the very same things... as I stated, I am all for you and your endeavors. I have never had any intention to hurt you, your maps and any future plans you have relative to RO. In fact, I've reccommended you and boasted of your talents to many good people in our community. I too, harbor no ill feelings and believe the entire matter is now water under the bridge.

Sidenote; Please, know me for me. I am who I am... all my life, all I've done was "tell it like I see it". I am not in any "popularity contests" people want my honest, to the point opinions. As such, I've found through the years, that far more people valued my opinions because they knew those opinions were genuine and came from the heart.

[Reservoir Dog]

According to Finnish Front lines VOD_B1 has more than 2300 hours of manned play time in the last 30 days. This is awsome, as it puts it next to the powerhouse maps. Though it has not gotten very much response on the RO forums, from mappers or TWI crew, it has caught on with some local servers and some overseas servers. No one just starting to enter the map arena could ask for something better than that. The success of the beta 1 is based on the alpha testing from RGN and the open discussions on these forums.

What's next? Beta 2 is in the works and this is what will be in it:

Valley walls will be touched up to look more realistic
Map will support 50 players
Increase tank numbers
Increase reinforcement numbers
Increase spawn points
Incrrease infantry roles
Small increase to artillery
Tank killing craters will be fixed, I will include some fox holes to provide infanty more cover
The couple of graphic glitches will be fixed
Would like to include the newer AT guns if they get released soon
More war damage

To existing military buildings
Include some out of the way destroyed buildings
little more smoke to some debris
tree stumps and charred trees from artillery attacks
More optimizations
Try to move radio and AT equipment away from tanks to help with "waiting on teammate" on tank deployment.
Include history revision
Bot support
Some background bombing sounds, not overwhelmingIf there are questions, comments or suggestions to add to the list or what's on it please don't hesitate to post. Thanks.

[Mike Nomad]

Outstandning.... HAH! I just knew this map, VoD would click. We have so much fun in it there is no way it wouldn't be a success among the players. :wink2:

I am so looking forward to B2 ... I'd better shut-up b4 I start sounding like a wowie-zowie. :d