RO-Valley of Death (Alpha Testing)

[Reservoir Dog]

Alpha tests started today and I saw some very good things from the map. I did see a couple things that I want to address before the beta.

Things to be done:

New overhead map.
Add history info and division info to teams.
Bot pathing.Things to fix:

Embed/Fix satchel pick-up u file.
Terrain tweak (to include more cover for Allies to leave spawn and more cover for some objectives.)
Barbed wire blows up tank when repeatedly running into it. (crossed blocking volumes I think)
Possibly add more PFs and Satchel pick-ups (considering the spawn area again for tankers). Satchel pick-ups are fairly new and people need to know they are there and what they look like.I still want to work on optimizing but the FPS were right with Arad SH4, if not a little better. Everything else I am pleased with. Please let me know your thoughts and suggestions, likes:d and dislikes:confused: .

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

The Carpatho-Dukla operation was began by the Soviet Army on September 8, 1944. The strategic Dukla Pass cuts through the Carpathian Mountains in Northwestern Slovakia. If wrestled from the Germans the Carpathian mountain passes (particularly Dukla Pass) would be opened to the Soviet military for a rapid descent from Poland into the Hungarian Plains. Yet the battle for control of this key region in Eastern Slovakia did not end with the capture of the Dukla Pass by the Soviets. Between Oct. 25-27, on the road between the Dukla Pass and Svidnik , in the farms and villages of the Kapisova Brook Valley, occurred one of the hardest fought tank battles of World War II, which then became the "Valley of Death."

On Oct. 19, 1944 General K.S. Moskalenko, the commander of the Soviet 38th Army and attached 1st Czechoslovak Army, received a directive from Marshal I.S. Konev, commander of the 1st Ukrainian Front, criticizing him for the recent unsuccessful attacks south of Dukla Pass and ordered him to prepare his next attack. Gen. Moskalenko assembled five rifle divisions (211th, 241st, 305th, 359th and 70th Guards) under 67th Rifle Corps and deployed 703 guns and mortars in the main breakthrough sector. The attack was supported by the remnants of the 4th Guards Tank Corps, (12th Guards Tank Brigade), 31st Tank Corp, and 1st Czechoslovakian Tank Brigade and was preceded by mine clearing of the key approaches. The attacking force was opposed by 1st Panzer Army's Armeegruppe “Heinrici” (1st, 8th, and 24th Panzer Divisions) three Sturmgeshutze (StuG) Brigades (300th, 301st, and 311th) and two recently replenished German Infantry Divisions (168th and 357th).

On October 6 following nearly 30 days of fighting in the Dukla Pass, German troops began to draw back 5 to 10 kilometers south to avoid the danger of encirclement. The battle in the "Valley of Death" began at 11:20 PM on Oct. 24th. The Allied attack was preceded by an 80 minute artillery barrage and aerial attacks. In the early hours of Oct. 25th, fog and heavy rainfall which had impeded the Allied advance began to subside. The Soviet attack was met by the German fire of 17 artillery and 20 mortar batteries which fired over 7,500 rounds that day. The Soviet in turn fired 32,000 artillery rounds and their Air Force, dropped 163 tons of bombs over the German positions.

The German resistance under the command of Generaloberst G. Heinrici, famous for his defensive tactics, was vigorous. At the village of Nizana Pisana the tanks of 12th Guards Tank Brigade encountered minefields and received heavy enemy fire. The brigade sustained heavy losses and after clearing the road of the mines, again moved forward. A heavy tank battle soon erupted. During the afternoon of Oct. 26, the 70th Guards Rifle Division, actively supported by tanks, captured Kapisova after heavy fighting, while the 305th Rifle Division took Dobroslava.

During the night of Oct 26 the German command reinforced the sector with the 168th Infantry Division. The Soviet attack on Oct. 27 again met fierce resistance from German armor, infantry, and artillery (7,500 rounds fired), along with repeated counterattacks that were supported by small groups of tanks (6 - 12). Despite heavy artillery (43,000 rounds) and aerial support the progress of 67th Rifle Corps was insignificant and the offensive was finally suspended. The Soviet advance after three days of near continuous fighting was only 6 km. During the less than 3 months of fighting in the Carpatho-Dukla operation, Allied forces suffered horrendous casualties. An estimated 84,000 Soviet soldiers were killed, wounded or missing, while the Czechoslovakians lost more than 6,000 soldiers. German casualties were estimated at 54,000 soldiers.


R. Dog
Just a very rough draft for the RO forums as an history intro for your map. Not real happy with it as is but wanted to give you a update on the background history and my progress. I'll narrow it way, way down for the map intro significantly. Unfortunately, I have not read an introduction of a new custom map on any of the RO forums so please feel free to copy, edit, add, cut, what ever and as always suggestions are welcomed. Never was a English major, so not my strongest point. Now Mike on the other hand, definitely has a way with the English language and is both articulate and eloquent in his writings! Get the hint Mike?

[Reservoir Dog]

Nice work One Shot. That should give the historians something to chew on. Right now the map is a little off-balanced. The Germans seem to dominate the map. They seem to have plenty of cover to get to objective and how no alot of problems getting to the wheat fields and battling Allies from their spawn. There will have to be more hills and cover for the Russians. The German tanks are very dominating force every time. I have seen enough games to know that it is too off-balanced.

I will add radios at spawn. This is a must. I'm considering some Anti-tank guys and lower the sniper number. I have added some minor tweaks like a light by the ladder so people can see it. I also know how to fix the satchel.u file. I want to add some things before Alpha 2 so it will be a few days. Anymore suggestions or ideas let me know.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

Nice work One Shot. That should give the historians something to chew on. Right now the map is a little off-balanced. The Germans seem to dominate the map. They seem to have plenty of cover to get to objective and how no alot of problems getting to the wheat fields and battling Allies from their spawn. There will have to be more hills and cover for the Russians. The German tanks are very dominating force every time. I have seen enough games to know that it is too off-balanced.

I will add radios at spawn. This is a must. I'm considering some Anti-tank guys and lower the sniper number. I have added some minor tweaks like a light by the ladder so people can see it. I also know how to fix the satchel.u file. I want to add some things before Alpha 2 so it will be a few days. Anymore suggestions or ideas let me know.

Reservoir Dog

@ One shot.... Yes, hint taken.


@ RD

Don't forget adding the 4 T34/85's.... that should do it. :wink1:

[OneShot]

@ One shot.... Yes, hint taken.


@ RD

Don't forget adding the 4 T34/85's.... that should do it. :wink1:

Mike;
I'll keep playing with the draft also (see my edits above of the rough draft which seems to be step in the right direction ?) so hopefully all you will need to do is some "polishing" on it but your help will greatly be appreciated!

R. Dog;
I agree with Mike, 4 more T-34/85's would be GREAT as well as the ability to bring arty down on the church area from the spawn! As full as the server has been spawn killing for the T-34/85 has been ridiculous so if nothing else may help in this regard, of course not the main objective of adding more Russian Armour. Guess that is the price you have to endure for a popular map! By the final version your map is going to be a blast! By the way I agree with one of your previous post, you definetly need a cool signature!

[Reservoir Dog]

I am going off of memory here but I believe there are 4 T34s, 4 IS2s, 2 Su76s, 2 KV1s and 4 transports. That's 16 vehicles total. If I add 4 more T34s that will kick the total vehicles to 20. Most servers including RGN are 32 slots when full so that's usually 16 players tops. And when I watched the map played on a full server at night, I noticed that the Germans really had their act together by doubling up in tanks (the powerhouses, Tigers, Panther's, and the PIVs) and completely ignoring the PIIIs. I'm not sure just adding more of one tank to the Russkies is going to do it, if I am understanding your suggestion.

I know terrain wise that the Germans have an advantage, a straight shot to 3 main objectives and a very good defensive area for the bridge to barracks. With the tank arsenal that they have, they can afford to ignore the PIIIs and still be at an advantage over the Allies tanks (that I have seen in-game). I know its early in the alpha testing and sometimes a better team will make a win look easy, but I have seen Germans dominating alot. Since they have the terrain advantage I am leaning to lowering their arsenal a little, but not dramatically. Right now they have 2 Tiger 1s, 5 Panthers, 2 PIVs, and 3 PIIIs, and 4 halftracks. What do you guys think about keeps the same Russian line-up and taking 2 of the Panthers and making Stugs out of them?

This would balance out the middle range tanks (KV1s and SUs) and lower the German fire-power to balance terrain advantage. It would also add more diverse tank battles and keep the tank number to 12 for both sides.

I am thinking of adding like 2 anti-tank guys and a couple more pfs to the map because there is alot of rushing with tanks to get objectives. The Axis love to rush the church and take some good defensive spots there. As long as they don't poke their heads out of the tank they have little to worry about now except other tanks. This allows them to run at full throttle most of the time instead of reconning and allowing infantry to clear an area before going in. This would also give snipers/mgers more of an opportunity to help tanks out. I guarantee that there will be more fire fights in the center wooded area, with anti-tank guys, and that spot will become very popular.

The MG position is still not a very popular role. Alot of times neither side has one. They can't do anything to the tanks and have to wait at an objective until infantry comes. I guess thats kinda boring. With a few more infantry on the map I think this role will also pick up popularity. I am not just trying to do the "popular" thing but I think that anti-tank guys will balance the infantry side of this combined arms map.

Sorry I'm doing alot of thinking out loud but I definitely want your opinions. We are technically still alpha-testing this before it goes to the RO community so we can try a few different things to see if it works or not. I also wanted to thank Mike for letting me do this alpha test on his servers. It seems to be the best way to check things out before releasing a beta.

One more thing I'm thinking about is to add some camo skins to the infantry. There are a number of them on the RO board and I'm sure there is a skinner that will let me use his. Can't think of the name of the map off hand but its the infantry one with the dutch windmills. I like the skins in that one.

Just kicking some thoughts around right now. See you guys out on the servers.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

I am going off of memory here but I believe there are 4 T34s, 4 IS2s, 2 Su76s, 2 KV1s and 4 transports. That's 16 vehicles total. If I add 4 more T34s that will kick the total vehicles to 20. Most servers including RGN are 32 slots when full so that's usually 16 players tops. And when I watched the map played on a full server at night, I noticed that the Germans really had their act together by doubling up in tanks (the powerhouses, Tigers, Panther's, and the PIVs) and completely ignoring the PIIIs. I'm not sure just adding more of one tank to the Ruskies is going to do it, if I am understanding your suggestion.

The reason you saw "doubling up" was because they too, were out of useful Tanks and a few of them were clan members out trying to have some fun with the pubbers. I thought that was great. Please, take nothing away from the German loadout.

I know terrain wise that the Germans have an advantage, a straight shot to 3 main objectives and a very good defensive area for the bridge to barracks. With the tank arsenal that they have, they can afford to ignore the PIIIs and still be at an advantage over the Allies tanks (that I have seen in-game). I know its early in the alpha testing and sometimes a better team will make a win look easy, but I have seen Germans dominating alot. Since they have the terrain advantage I am leaning to lowering their arsenal a little, but not dramatically. Right now they have 2 Tiger 1s, 5 Panthers, 2 PIVs, and 3 PIIIs, and 4 halftracks. What do you guys think about keeps the same Russian line-up and taking 2 of the Panthers and making Stugs out of them? No, No, No. You have it right it IS the Terrain advantage.... in reality, allowing the Russians 4 more T34/85's will allow for better flanking. Then with the added radio in the Russian spawn and the added concealment placements for Russian armor... the "perceived" disadvantage the Russians are placed in will disappear.

This would balance out the middle range tanks (KV1s and SUs) and lower the German fire-power to balance terrain advantage. It would also add more diverse tank battles and keep the tank number to 12 for both sides.

First of all, the KV1 is now a true Heavy Weight, thanks to the AB Mut. Why 12 tanks for both sides? Leave the German loadout as is and add more tanks to the Russian line-up. Truly speaking, that's as it really was. The Russians always had more tanks and really more of everything once they began their counter offensive.

I am thinking of adding like 2 anti-tank guys and a couple more pfs to the map because there is alot of rushing with tanks to get objectives. The Axis love to rush the church and take some good defensive spots there. As long as they don't poke their heads out of the tank they have little to worry about now except other tanks. This allows them to run at full throttle most of the time instead of reconning and allowing infantry to clear an area before going in. This would also give snipers/mgers more of an opportunity to help tanks out. I guarantee that there will be more fire fights in the center wooded area, with anti-tank guys, and that spot will become very popular. The PTRD (anti-tank rifle) is useless against anything stronger that a Stug and P3... so adding that is a waste of time unless your goal is to both weaken the German loadout and provide easy targets for the PTRD's.. that would ruin the true, epic battle levels being achieved in the map now. With experienced Tankers on the Russian side, the added cover and a radio in the spawn the Germans would be hard pressed to continue with the current battle plans we are now seeing.

The MG position is still not a very popular role. Alot of times neither side has one. They can't do anything to the tanks and have to wait at an objective until infantry comes. I guess thats kinda boring. With a few more infantry on the map I think this role will also pick up popularity. I am not just trying to do the "popular" thing but I think that anti-tank guys will balance the infantry side of this combined arms map. If the MG guys had more place in which to conceal themselves that were not objectives... they'd fare a great deal better. While I'm at it.... consider the possibility of releasing a version of the map with no objectives... a map designed to allow "Team Deathmatch" battles. ie, "Valley of Death TDM". I honestly believe this map would become a blockbuster.. TDM type play is beginning to take hold on other servers now as well and at the moment there is not one TDM map or an ADMIN choice to turn off objectives.

Sorry I'm doing alot of thinking out loud but I definitely want your opinions. We are technically still alpha-testing this before it goes to the RO community so we can try a few different things to see if it works or not. I also wanted to thank Mike for letting me do this alpha test on his servers. It seems to be the best way to check things out before releasing a beta. No problem... we are ready to help if its for the best interests of RO and the players.

One more thing I'm thinking about is to add some camo skins to the infantry. There are a number of them on the RO board and I'm sure there is a skinner that will let me use his. Can't think of the name of the map off hand but its the infantry one with the dutch windmills. I like the skins in that one.

Flashpanhunter is who you speak of and the map is RO-Kolno. Skins are fine as long as they are "in the map" and not a separate entity that both Admins and Clients must deal with. Make sure the files are all in "mylevel".

Just kicking some thoughts around right now. See you guys out on the servers.

Reservoir Dog

That's the only way ideas and thoughts ever make it to fruition in a worthwhile manner. :wink1:


I incliude this post by Amizaur today in the RO Forum for reference;

Yes, early IS-2 - small vision "hatch" similar like in Panther D, but not big enough to even put head out probably, late Is-2 only small vision slit with triplex glass block. BTW I didn't want to be in the shoes of the driver if a round hit or simply ricocheted along the armor just into his visor... :-/ From what I heard, it happened frequently with early Is-2 (with broken nose) and still from time to time on late ISs-2s... the driver usually was killed...

As for PzIV it was probably possible to put head out, but not reach controls at the same time. So I should disable controls while the head is out I guess ;-). And PzIII ? Only possible to get head out while stationary ?

I noticed a bug in blow-up-after-burning-a-while code in online game tonight. It takes damage and blows up only if there is a man on a driver's seat, I sit in a burning time 10 minutes after noticing that bug, only didn't switch to driver anymore. Have to look at that. And I have to make adjustable sniper scope if no one tried to do this :-/ because I was exremally frustrated today trying to relax from tanking a while by trying a sniper role at med (500m) range... I need data about the sights modelled (zoom and field of view) !

But I would prefer to focus on tank warfare... is there a one coder interested in actually improving the game a bit ? Not only "round limit" or "grenade only" muts ?

Mike, great map by the way promotes maneuver and I can imagine that it would promote team tactics greatly if any team tried it (good team with VoIP would simply wipe the floor with the other side, red or blue, if it was team vs bunch game.

He was on yesterday for quite some time in Valley of Death... He too, admits that a Team DeathMatch game style would be great. Amizaur is the author of the ArmoredBeasts Mutator.

[OneShot]

Leave the German loadout as is and add more tanks to the Russian line-up. Truly speaking, that's as it really was. The Russians always had more tanks and really more of everything once they began their counter offensive.



Mike;
Say it isn't so !!!!! You "history guys with your zealot attitudes" are going to ruin the game for us all !!!! LOL !!!!!!!
You don't know how long I have been waiting for that post my friend !!!!!!! LOL !!!!!!! :wink2: PS .... and you are so right Mike, including a willingness to sacrifice how ever many lives necessary to achieve the objective, blood for soil as it were, never retreat, incredible!

Reservoir Dog;
I have to admit that my on-line gaming experience have been limited to a month or so of America's Army (before I got turned off to the bunny hopping juvenile cheats that seemed to permeate the servers) and more recently RO (maybe 3 or 4 months of occasional play). My opinions/views of balanced game play for multiplayer on-line gaming would be very limited and not worth a great deal. I as a history buff and computer enthusiast am immediately drawn to WWII computer games. I have owned/played them all, for many, many years, but in the single player version only.

But from a "technical" aspect as to how to improve a map's playability Mike would be my first choice as a consultant and I believe yours also, otherwise why would you be here at RGN? From reading posts here and at other gaming forums all over the net Mike seems to have been heavily involved in the WWII genre of on-line multiplier gaming since nearly it's inception or at the very least since the first releases of COD and MOH. IMO Mike's has a passion for WWII gaming, along with obvious computer skills and clear knowledge of coding/modding/mapping, and yes HISTORY knowledge seems quite extensive and in depth. My advice would be to take advantage of his experience and expertise and try his suggestions as you have been doing all along with the "Valley" map.

Just an idea, would an opening arty barrage near the German spawn area, similar to the opening barrage near the Russian spawn area in the RO map Muddy Tigers do anything to slow the German initial advance and yet not effect game play balance? Hate to say this but could add to the overall historical effect as well due to the fact that most counter offensive usually were preceded by large opening barrages and would really immerse the players in the atmosphere from the start. May give the Russian a chance to get a "jump" so to speak on the map at least initially? What do you think?

Having said that R. Dog, like your stated your map is still in the testing phase, so what is the harm of trying out a few new ideas/tweaks? Make some changes if you you like, have Mike load them on the server and lets try them out. What can it hurt, always switch things back right? That is what testing is all about correct? Your creation, hard work, and brain child, always your call! Why not give it a shot my friend, what do you have to loose? Like they say, nothing ventured nothing gained.:wink1: Been doing some editing on the draft, still not happy with it yet, go back to the post from time to time if you get a chance and reread it and give me your opinion, better or worse?

[Reservoir Dog]

I am willing to try a few different things on the map to try to balance it. The radio at the spawns would be a great addition. So would making bigger hills outside of the Russian spawn, maybe a small hill like at the church which would allow Russian tanks to view a wider area and protect their closer objectives better. And the addition of those big round hay bails would be nice too.

The only thing that I am worried about is adding 4 more T34s makes the total tank number 16. That is the total amount of players on a team if the server is full. If the server is full, no one wants to be infantry, and no one wants to double up in tanks, this would be ideal. But considering those condictions, all Allies will just use the IS2s and T34s and ignore the KV1s and SU76s. Im not sure I want that to happen. Its a good thing to double up in tanks. I also think its a good thing when you don't always get the tank you want at spawn and forced to use another tank and find its advantages and disadvantages in the map.

When clans join a server and double up in certain tanks, that's fine. There will be tanks that go untouched. But for a team of "average joes" like myself that shouldn't be the norm to have unused tanks sitting there.

I have pmed Mike on the RO forum about some of the suggestions that Amizaur had made in regards to the anti-tank roles. I won't say anything about that til I hear back from Mike.

The historical write-up is great as for as I have seen. I will need a very condensed version for the map description part of the map. Also if One Shot would give me your best guess for the 2 tank divisions name and descriptions that are represented in the map, that would be great.

Let me just say I'm not opposed to trying anything right now in the alpha testing stage. I am just posting my concerns. I know that I haven't played this game or others in the genre as much as others so your opinions are very important. Thanks guys.

RD

[OneShot]

The historical write-up is great as for as I have seen. I will need a very condensed version for the map description part of the map. Also if One Shot would give me your best guess for the 2 tank divisions name and descriptions that are represented in the map, that would be great.

RD

Thanks RD, trying to do as much of the writting/editing knowing Mike is as busy as you certainly are! Besides this is my part and should be my responsibility.



For the record "Valley of Death":

Russian units: Soviet 38th Army
12th Guards Tank Brigade armor
305th Soviet Rifle Division of the 67th Rifle Corps infantry
Commander : General K. S. Moskalenko

These are absolutely set RD for the Allies (Red Team)!! No changes!!!! Put them in the map!!!!


German units : German First Panzer Army,
ArmeeGruppe "Heinrici"

1st Panzer Division armor
168th Infantry Division infantry
Commander : General G. Heinrici

These are also now definite for the Axis (Gray)!!!!! No changes!!!!! Put them in the map!!!!!!

I'll now get on the abbreviated write up for the map and post it here RD. Do you need me to PM them or email these to you or can you copy them from my posts? Not sure you can go in and edit/copy on my threads? Perhaps Mike can get them from here and then get them on to you for the map? Let me know what will work for you. I also fall into the "average joe" category of players so thanks for vote of confidence, much appreciated Guy!

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Man, I gotta find time to play more often....

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

Here is what I have come up so far for your map intro and narrative. I have finally settled on the 168th Infantry Divison for the Germans and edited my previous post to reflect it! Let me know what you think? I have looked at almost every RO map (stock and custom) today and there seems to be no set format. The stock RO maps intros are beautiful (nice to have the template) and each has a very nice picture, map name title, brief history and scenario (normally two short paragraphs), while most custom maps range from a word or two to two paragraphs! Just no real pattern to go by as far as custom maps are concerned. I tried to keep it at two short paragraphs but we can certainly shorten that up if need be. Let me know? I will leave the descriptions/order for the objectives to you RD, you know best how you want your map to flow.

VALLEY OF DEATH
The Soviet Carptho-Dukla campaign began in autumn of 1944.Their goal to capture the German occupied Carpathian mountain passes in Czechoslovakia (particularly the Dukla Pass) for a rapid advance from Poland into the Hungarian Plains. Between Oct. 25-27, on the road between the Dukla Pass and Svidnik , occurred one of the hardest fought tank battles of World War II, which then became the "Valley of Death."

On the morning of the Oct. 26th, with the heavy rain and fog clearing, the Soviet 305th Soviet Rifle Division and the 12th Guards Tank Brigade continued their advanced through the farms and valleys between the villages of Kapisova and Dobroslava where elements of Armeegruppee “Heinrici,” including 1st Panzer Division and 168th Infantry Division, were particularly well entrenched. A heavy tank battle soon erupted!

Allied Objectives: Capture and hold four …………………………....???
Axis Objectives: Defend and hold four …………………………….....???

Of course still a very rough draft, and as always all suggestions and comments are welcome Guys. If you choose you could use just the last paragraph, or parts of both, or all or most of it? You may have to insert it in the beginning of the map to see how it looks to you? Your call RD, let me know if you want me to shorten it or any changes you feel needed, glad to do it for you.

Reservoir Dog - If I am thinking correctly, by your request for the final history, can the Beta for the "Valley of Death" and then ultimately the finale release of your map be getting close????

[Mike Nomad]

Never ask "Is it close?" "When is it gonna be ready?" "How long before its done?" I've learned through the years that this is the quickest way to lose ground with any developer because it makes them feel uneasy and "rushed".. any program, product, good meal or anything custom made or composed is done with TLC and therefore requires the necessary time needed to become the polished, finished product everyone expects. :d

Valley of Death is becoming everything we wanted Sturgisov Farms to be and then more, much more. Reservoir Dog has discovered the Platinum lining to the programmer's Golden Rule of "Give Them What THEY Want, NOT what you want!" That is the single most important reason, among many, that Sturgisov Farms and Valley of Death have proven to be ever so popular.

People want to play the game, not learn history by re-living it in a game where the outcome is cast in granite due to historical accuracy. RD has proven, beyond a doubt by his development and creation of these two maps, that creating a map surrounded by historical facts, reflecting historically accurate uniforms, weapons and equipment is more than sufficient in regard to "Historical Accuracy". However, at the same time, allowing for creative and artistic liberty that brings forth the repeat playability, balance and true deeply immersive gameplay of a highly successful map that is eagerly played, again and again. RD has the correct formula.

It must always be remembered that for a truly successful map you need:

Historically accurate uniforms, weapons, vehicles and equipment.
Well planned multi-tactic map battle-plans that ensure unpredictability.
Carefully considered loadouts to ensure fully balanced gameplay.
Multi-faceted map elements of strategy and tactics for repeat gameplay.
A map environment that ensures total player "you are there" immersion.
Consider variations of Gametype play ie., Team Deathmatch.Meet these elements of "kick ass" mapping... and you'll constantly see winning maps. Maps that are continually popular among users.

Additionally please, BRING BACK TEAM DEATHMATCH! Team Deathmatch game play maps are maps providing all the excellent elements of a highly immersive, demanding battlefield like Sturgisov Farms and Valley of Death and other maps even much larger in scope but without the repetitive, boring "capture the objectives" type game play.

Constantly chasing "objectives" gets old after a while and unfortunately, allows the idiot weenies who only chase points to ruin the game for everyone else. I might add, that those trolls are not only denying the other players the real fun of playing the map, using the weapons and vehicles to become immersed in battle, they are proving that having only "capture the objective" type gameplay is a grievous error.

Enjoying epic battles involving combined arms and NO objectives to be "captured" for points in large maps like Sturgisov Farms, Valley of Death, Berezina, BDJ and Orel IS in fact, the immediate wave of the future.

Its called:

TEAM DEATHMATCH

[OneShot]

Never ask "Is it close?" "When is it gonna be ready?" "How long before its done?" I've learned through the years that this is the quickest way to lose ground with any developer because it makes them feel uneasy and "rushed".. any program, product, good meal or anything custom made or composed is done with TLC and therefore requires the necessary time needed to become the polished, finished product everyone expects.

Agreed Mike, just having a little fun with RD because of his anxiousness for me to complete the history behind his map. Guess that is why many maps get to Beta 5 before their ultimate release. Lots of TLC and fine tuning/tweaking. I certainly am in no hurry, I enjoy the crap out of Sturgisov Farm and the Valley of Death as they are currently, one in early beta and the other only in alpha. Can you imagine what the finished projects will be then? I also am a big Death Match fan for the larger armor centric maps, be very cool, as you suggested, to have both versions available for the same custom map.

[OneShot]

Man, I gotta find time to play more often....

Moe, don't we all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:whaa1:

[Reservoir Dog]

I was on the map last night. It began as just a few people but in a matter of a few minutes we had a number of folks and a real game. It was fun. One of the players had mentioned that they weren't able to zoom with binoculars and scopes and another mentioned something was different with the HE rounds from their tank. I told them that the mutator that is on the server was adjusting some of the stock equipment and tanks. Didn't know if you were aware of these Mike so I am just posting it.

You have mentioned team deathmatch twice now. Personally I would rather work on the mutator itself than create a new map. Here are some reasons:

First an admin should be in control of what kind of deathmatch they want on their server. How long it lasts and the limit on the spawns would be able to be controlled
If people are looking for this type of gameplay, they should be looking for a server that is running it, not a particular map.
A mutator would change ALL maps in rotation. This would add to the variety of this type of gameplay and draw more people. Not to mention that you wouldn't have to get the map author's permission for every map you want to have a team deathmatch on.
No extra maps to be loaded and no extra maps for clients to download
There is already a coded script on the wiki for a mutator, in UT2004 (unreal), which converts maps to team deathmatch. Since this is identical code used in RO it should only be a matter of tweaking it to work. Much less work than starting from scratch.After the beta of Valley I will take a break and play with coding mutators. There is also one for Unreal that puts the country of the player as a tag in their name on the players list. Just by looking at the players list you can see if there are people from US, Germany, Russia, Australia, etc. Thats something I have been wanting to integrate into the RO community.

I am good with the write up you got One Shot. It looks great and adding the history will enhance the map. Thanks. The reason I seem to be in a rush is that the alpha 2 will have all of the things that need to be added to it before the beta is released. If there is a alpha 3 it will just have tweaks for gameplay and balance. Farm has been converted to Valley. There won't be anymore betas with Farm. The betas out now have some bugs and with the addition of history, Valley is my clean slate. Valley is very solid, good fps balance with the details, no bugs that affect gameplay and alot more tactics.

I consider Valley of Death to be a hybrid of the combined arms maps. It is a combination of what players like in tank and infantry maps. It should draw players who traditionally only like one of these types of maps. It should have elements of both that work in combination with each other.

With this in mind, I would like to mention what will be added/changed in the alpha 2 version. All mods will be included in the map itself and require no extra files for servers or players.


New camo uniforms for the infantry.
More satchel and pf pickups but with a longer spawn time for all of them.
The addition of two M1937 guns, one on the side of the church and one at the farmhouse.
Addition of anti-tank roles for both sides.
Slight change to the tank layouts for balance.
Addition of the history.
New overhead map.
Bot support.
More terrain tweaking and map optimizations.
More detail tweaks for objectives. I believe the changes will slow down the rushing of objectives with tanks, make the infantry stronger, promote more "team play" and less everyone doing their own thing, and a slower, more defense-minded, paced game (closer to what we envision in a team deathmatch, rather than players rushing to objectives to get points).

I don't have an eta on A2 but it will be at least a couple more weeks. One thing that I have learned is never rush a map. With the alpha testing on the RGN servers I have been able to see how the map is played and what I would like to fix. I have gotten some good suggestions from the forums, players in game and e-mails. Its good to get various opinions from different sources; tank & infantry enthusiasts, casual players, experienced coders, experienced map builders.


Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

I was on the map last night. It began as just a few people but in a matter of a few minutes we had a number of folks and a real game. It was fun. One of the players had mentioned that they weren't able to zoom with binoculars and scopes and another mentioned something was different with the HE rounds from their tank. I told them that the mutator that is on the server was adjusting some of the stock equipment and tanks. Didn't know if you were aware of these Mike so I am just posting it.

You have mentioned team deathmatch twice now. Personally I would rather work on the mutator itself than create a new map. Here are some reasons:

First an admin should be in control of what kind of deathmatch they want on their server. How long it lasts and the limit on the spawns would be able to be controlled
If people are looking for this type of gameplay, they should be looking for a server that is running it, not a particular map.
A mutator would change ALL maps in rotation. This would add to the variety of this type of gameplay and draw more people. Not to mention that you wouldn't have to get the map author's permission for every map you want to have a team deathmatch on.
No extra maps to be loaded and no extra maps for clients to download
There is already a coded script on the wiki for a mutator, in UT2004 (unreal), which converts maps to team deathmatch. Since this is identical code used in RO it should only be a matter of tweaking it to work. Much less work than starting from scratch.Reservoir Dog


OK, I am in full agreement... I never really wanted a single TDM map, a mutator to achieve Team Death Match makes good sense. I am with you 100%.

A new update to AB MUT was released today.. v 2.05 now and the change list is here in the forum. Faust's are fixed. IS2 now has an opening hatch. Along with a number of other enhancements.

[OneShot]

I am good with the write up you got One Shot. It looks great and adding the history will enhance the map. Thanks.

Reservoir Dog


My pleasure R. Dog. Glad I could in such a small way contribute to your work. In the future if you choose to do another mapping project let me know, I would be honored to be your "Historian" as it were.

The research for this map has been quite challenging, but also has been fun and rewarding. I have learned a lot and at risk of taking beating (LOL) I feel your map RD is one of the most enjoyable combined arms maps in game play I have experienced in RO (and there are some good ones), as well as being a very historically accurate (see below for similarities) map imo! I know it may not have been your goal, but take pride in achieving both with your map.

If anyone questions any of the research or background for the "VALLEY" on the forums let me know, and I will answer them for you!!!! I have all of my source material well documented. The amount of information I have accumulated on this two day battle I could probably write a book. Here are a few examples.....

Some of the German's strategy:
Tank traps, armor, lookout towers and thousands of land mines, along with wire entanglements in the forests and on the roads
The forests were partly cut, with logs felled specifically to impede travel of armor and massed infantry.
Local Slovakian citizens were conscripted to dig trenches, create tank traps, fell trees for roadblocks and to direct armor/infantry to minefields
Positions were created on the flanking ridges and slopes with fortified bunkers built into the hillside to rain down deadly fire on advancing units.

Some of the Russian strategy's:
Rapid advance through the defenses by the Soviet 25th Tank Corps
Primarily armor/troop advances via the main roadways
Artillery massed for the initial assaults, air support to eliminate stuborn defenses
Armor used primarily to support infantry after the artillery had “softened up” the German defensive positions
Flanking attacks vs Frontal assaults

I could also provide you with the type and numbers of tanks which were in the first echlon of the "Valley" assault, follow up waves, direction of advance, jump off times, artillary statistics (Oct. 25-Oct.27:14,500 rounds by Germans, 75,000 rounds by Russians, average density of 1,751 barrels per km), number and percentage of villages/structures/homes destroyed (which was significant, 11 villages over 90% and 14 villages more than 50% destroyed, well over 2,000 homes as well as 55 bridges also destroyed) civilian casualties (which due to space limits I unfortunately had to omit), armor, vehicles, artillery, mortars either destroyed or captured, number of sorties flown in support, etc., etc., etc....... all saved on my hard drive or in my library! Just a little fact that may be interesting, every Soviet tank deployed during the two day "Valley of Death" battle were lost in action!

Finally found an excuse to put some of my research in a post, LOL!!!!!

Please let me know if I can do anything else for you RD. I like your proposed changes, clearly you have done your research as well. IMO you have got a real winner in the works! I wish you nothing but success with the "Valley" map.

Looking forward to the next alpha version of the "Valley of Death" and I will see you on the battlefield my friend.

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

I was playing on the Valley of Death map today and after getting killed returned automatically to Allied spawn and found the far right T-34/85 upside down. I don't know what would cause this, never saw it before in the spawn where it would not right it self after a period of time. Weird huh? Just wanted to make you aware, maybe nothing, or a rare/fluke occurrence? Here are a few screen shots I took for you. Sorry I don't know how to make them appear automatically when you open the thread, hopefully you can see them clearly! First time I have saved and posted screenies from a game!

[Reservoir Dog]

Yeah, I have seen it. The bots are doing the weirdest stuff on this map. I have a number of "bot path actors" flying above the landscape. They have to be on the ground for the bots to use. It is causing the bots to look up alot and on the ally side the bots are sometimes play "jump-rope" with the tanks. They stand on the top of the tank and somehow flip them over, lol. The axis side I have seen a bot run over to the river and do a dead man's float. Real weird stuff but the next alpha will have the bot paths working and you won't see any of that.

I was on last night, there was a full server and saw a few more RGN members I haven't seen. The Allies, led by RGN Hell Hund, really had their act together and putting pressure on the Axis team, led by a new RGN member can't remember his name but he said he was recruited recently by Mike. It went 5 games and for the first time I didn't feel sorry for the Allies. They can win but it really takes the Allies being aggressive, being real good with tanks and infantry, and knowing the map. There still needs to be balancing but less than I originally thought. I think that Armored Beast 2 does alot to balance the tanks so I want to make sure on the poor servers that don't have that mutator, that it will be even fight still. I think when I release the beta I would like to recommend this mutator with it.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

so I want to make sure on the poor servers that don't have that mutator, that it will be even fight still. I think when I release the beta I would like to recommend this mutator with it.

RD

On that basis, then Valley would be out of kilter on Servers running AB. :confused:

[Reservoir Dog]

The AB mutator will do the same for most maps that were balanced without a mutator. The AB mod seems to be well thought-out and I'm sure whatever advantages it gives to one side it gives something else to the other. What I am trying to say is that the map needs to be balanced without a mutator so it has a base to draw from. If it is balanced for a mutator, then the other servers without it could see some noticable unbalance. For example, this mutator increases the strength of the KV-1 tank quite a bit. If I just went off of that and had most of the Allies fleet with KV-1s against a fleet of panthers it might work with the mod. In a server without it, it would be a slaughter.

Right now I know the map could be more balanced overall. I'm not saying that it is so unbalanced that if the allies had superior players it can't be won. There just needs to be more tweaking and it can't be based on what a mutator changes. Thats all I'm trying to say.

Once I have the bot paths set up I can watch the bots battle it out. This would be a good reference point. It will be ran without the mutator and with it to see the differences. I know that the bots can be stupid sometimes, but they will all be stupid, on both sides. This will a good way to verify balance with and without any mutators.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

The AB mutator will do the same for most maps that were balanced without a mutator. The AB mod seems to be well thought-out and I'm sure whatever advantages it gives to one side it gives something else to the other. What I am trying to say is that the map needs to be balanced without a mutator so it has a base to draw from. If it is balanced for a mutator, then the other servers without it could see some noticable unbalance. For example, this mutator increases the strength of the KV-1 tank quite a bit. If I just went off of that and had most of the Allies fleet with KV-1s against a fleet of panthers it might work with the mod. In a server without it, it would be a slaughter.

Right now I know the map could be more balanced overall. I'm not saying that it is so unbalanced that if the allies had superior players it can't be won. There just needs to be more tweaking and it can't be based on what a mutator changes. Thats all I'm trying to say.

Once I have the bot paths set up I can watch the bots battle it out. This would be a good reference point. It will be ran without the mutator and with it to see the differences. I know that the bots can be stupid sometimes, but they will all be stupid, on both sides. This will a good way to verify balance with and without any mutators.

RD


What I meant to say is the same thing you are saying. I can play as an Ally and do just fine. Or, as a German and do equally as well. The cover afforded the Allies is excellent now and the deviation in the distance shooting is working well for both sides. Valley needs very little if any, adjustment in the balance/loadout areas.

What Valley really needs is TEAMWORK. The days of "Lone Rangering" thru an involved map are over. The bot pathing will only go so far as they do not utilize teamwork. Teamwork is the key, once its truly put to use, we can then see what the story is.

AB on the other hand, is working its wonders in overcoming many small but annoying bugs in RO and hopefully, it'll fix the LOS turret disable bug next.... we shall see.:wink1:

[Phaser]

Never ask "Is it close?" "When is it gonna be ready?" "How long before its done?" I've learned through the years that this is the quickest way to lose ground with any developer because it makes them feel uneasy and "rushed".. any program, product, good meal or anything custom made or composed is done with TLC and therefore requires the necessary time needed to become the polished, finished product everyone expects. :d

Valley of Death is becoming everything we wanted Sturgisov Farms to be and then more, much more. Reservoir Dog has discovered the Platinum lining to the programmer's Golden Rule of "Give Them What THEY Want, NOT what you want!" That is the single most important reason, among many, that Sturgisov Farms and Valley of Death have proven to be ever so popular.

People want to play the game, not learn history by re-living it in a game where the outcome is cast in granite due to historical accuracy. RD has proven, beyond a doubt by his development and creation of these two maps, that creating a map surrounded by historical facts, reflecting historically accurate uniforms, weapons and equipment is more than sufficient in regard to "Historical Accuracy". However, at the same time, allowing for creative and artistic liberty that brings forth the repeat playability, balance and true deeply immersive gameplay of a highly successful map that is eagerly played, again and again. RD has the correct formula.

It must always be remembered that for a truly successful map you need:

Historically accurate uniforms, weapons, vehicles and equipment.
Well planned multi-tactic map battle-plans that ensure unpredictability.
Carefully considered loadouts to ensure fully balanced gameplay.
Multi-faceted map elements of strategy and tactics for repeat gameplay.
A map environment that ensures total player "you are there" immersion.
Consider variations of Gametype play ie., Team Deathmatch.Meet these elements of "kick ass" mapping... and you'll constantly see winning maps. Maps that are continually popular among users.

Additionally please, BRING BACK TEAM DEATHMATCH! Team Deathmatch game play maps are maps providing all the excellent elements of a highly immersive, demanding battlefield like Sturgisov Farms and Valley of Death and other maps even much larger in scope but without the repetitive, boring "capture the objectives" type game play.

Constantly chasing "objectives" gets old after a while and unfortunately, allows the idiot weenies who only chase points to ruin the game for everyone else. I might add, that those trolls are not only denying the other players the real fun of playing the map, using the weapons and vehicles to become immersed in battle, they are proving that having only "capture the objective" type gameplay is a grievous error.

Enjoying epic battles involving combined arms and NO objectives to be "captured" for points in large maps like Sturgisov Farms, Valley of Death, Berezina, BDJ and Orel IS in fact, the immediate wave of the future.

Its called:


TEAM DEATHMATCH


I have to disagree,TDM is the wrong approach for RO,what makes RO great is the objectives,TDM can stay in COD and other ww2 games but RO shines because it doesn't follow the rest.

[Mike Nomad]

I have to disagree,TDM is the wrong approach for RO,what makes RO great is the objectives,TDM can stay in COD and other ww2 games but RO shines because it doesn't follow the rest.

OK, so you disagree...... that is your right and privilege, but to deny score of individuals the opportunity to play TDM just because you want to stand on principle... is kinda selfish.

RO is DYING................... realize that. It getting long in the tooth and needs revitalization, serious revitalization. That means MORE that an update/fix/patch - it means more variety for gameplay - appeal to more players - provide a wider scope of entertainment.

Adding TDM is not meant to replace anything, its meant to ADD to the entertainment factor of Red Orchestra.

For me, I'm tired of watching twits scurry around rapidly capturing every objective, gathering points for the stats, thus forcing the map to be over and killing GAMEPLAY for all the other players in the server. To me, that's BS.

Its now a proven fact that many of the players want to engage in the various types of battle the game offers... not scurry about the maps like Pavlov's Dogs mindlessly chasing objectives.

[Phaser]

OK, so you disagree...... that is your right and privilege, but to deny score of individuals the opportunity to play TDM just because you want to stand on principle... is kinda selfish.

RO is DYING................... realize that. It getting long in the tooth and needs revitalization, serious revitalization. That means MORE that an update/fix/patch - it means more variety for gameplay - appeal to more players - provide a wider scope of entertainment.

Adding TDM is not meant to replace anything, its meant to ADD to the entertainment factor of Red Orchestra.

For me, I'm tired of watching twits scurry around rapidly capturing every objective, gathering points for the stats, thus forcing the map to be over and killing GAMEPLAY for all the other players in the server. To me, that's BS.

Its now a proven fact that many of the players want to engage in the various types of battle the game offers... not scurry about the maps like Pavlov's Dogs mindlessly chasing objectives.

Well Mike,adding TDM will not save RO from its fate, and if your getting long in the tooth as you put it then i suggest taking a break from the game for a bit.

The guys that "scurry around" caping objectives are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, it may be BS from your point of view but to me its the way the game is played.

Wanting different types of battles is a good idea, and i'm sure a new type of objective or gametype may be introduced one day but to go backwards in gameplay to TDM is just to horrible to think of....

[Phaser]

Hey Mike i'll be on one of the servers if ya want to talk more..

[Mike Nomad]

OK, I'm gonna get a cuppa and I'll be there. :wink1:

[OneShot]

Reservoir Dog;

I finally received that reference book (The Panzer Legions, A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisons of WW II and their Commanders by S. Mitcham, Jr.) today from my local county library. It took them nearly two weeks to get it here from the middle of the state!

Anyway, here is the latest: The 1st Panzer Divison in late October 1943 received enough PzKw VI (Tiger I) tanks to equip a battalion ( four companies of 17 Tigers each) plus 100 new PzKw V Panthers. Also the 24th Panzer Divison had two tank companies ( 17 tanks each also) equipped with Tiger I tanks! Of course both units ( along with the 8th Panzer Division [Mk IV's and weaker tanks, no heavies]) made up ArmeeGruppe "Heinrici" and were the main strength of the German resistance at the Dukla Pass.

So despite the very heavy fighting prior to the Carpo-Dukla Campaign (less than 10 months) including the Battle of Kiev Salient, the Battle of Zhitomir (which 1st Panzer Divison captured on Nov 17-18, 1943 ), it would still be reasonable and logical to assume that at least a few Tiger I's would still have been available to the Germans from these two Panzer Divisons (although certainly not as plentiful as the Panthers and Mk IV's) and thus used during the two day's of heavy tank battles in the "Valley of Death!"

Just though you might want to know, up to you what you do with this info in regards to your maps armor load out? Either way, all the tanks you have currently represented for players on your map (Alpha 1) were in fact there at the battle! Any questions on the historical background of these units let me know RD.

[Reservoir Dog]

Thanks so much for verifying all of that history One Shot. You have done a great job in helping me. I think most maps are probably built around history first and then the gameplay. The reverse had happened for Valley and has come together nicely, guess I'm lucky. Though my priority is gameplay and balance, the history side will only draw more of a crowd to the map, with the "history zealots"...lol. Are you happy with the write-ups in the previous posts. I want to incorporate the team divisions, their history, and the beginning synopsis at the load of the map (its too bad you can't see it in multiplayer mode) in the near future. The longer history and the map load-downs will be on the post of the beta release on this forum and RO's.

I have been working on the "little" details on the map. I have added hinges for the doors at the barracks, more scattered furniture in the bunker to show a fire fight has happened inside and it provides more cover inside for infantry, more details to the farmhouse. I have adjusted the rails at the depot to be perfectly lined up. I have opened up a hole in the back of the stone wall around the church so a tank can go through. I have adjusted the river shader and have given it a light green color and texture and wow, it really gave it a real water look that I haven't seen on another map. Added a light at the ladder in the barracks so most people will see it as they enter. Adjusted the sunlight over the horizon a little for more of a realistic look. Arty radios have been added to both spawns.

The big changes seem to look good. I have changed the sniper position to a 3 limit. Added 2 anti-tank roles. There are 3 pfs at the spawn, (closest) first and second objectives but have raised the respawn time from 45 to 60 seconds. The satchels will be 2 at closest first, 1 at the second and 1 at the spawn with the same 45 second respawn. The satchel pick-ups don't require the additional file for the server now.

The German AT role has pfs and a SMG. They only need to resupply to get more pfs at the various resupply points which makes them a powerful role. To off-set this advantage I have added the M1937 guns at the side of the church and in front of the farmhouse. Because of their limited left and right views they can't cover the entire landscape in front of them but can get a few shots off if an Axis tank gets in their sights. Because the Axis can't use them and that only an Allied infantry can (tank crew can't), which means that either a sniper, mg, or AT role has to man the gun instead of getting into a good position or capping, this seems to be very well balanced.

The Axis tank line-up is 2 Tigers, 4 Pathers, 3 PIV-Hs, 2 PIIIs, and 2 Stugs. The Allies 5 T34s, 4 IS2, 2 KV-1, and 2 Su76s. Same 4 transports for both sides.

Something I noticed on the Huges Breakout map is that the AB mutator is required. I guess the map has files that are used by the mutator. I was under the impression that the AB mutator was optional to a map to enhance it. If anyone has more information about that I would appreciate it.

I still need to finish bot pathing, make an overhead map, and tweak some of the trianglar spots of the terrain. I will probably only add a couple of hills outside of the Allies spawn for long shots. That will be the only big change to terrain as I am pleased with everything else.

Camo skins are on hold since they require more files to be added to server. The M1937 already add some so until I figure out how to integrate these into the map (if its possible) I don't want to add to problems/complications of less experienced server admins with this map (present company excluded of course:p ).

Resevoir Dog

[OneShot]

Thanks so much for verifying all of that history One Shot. You have done a great job in helping me. I think most maps are probably built around history first and then the gameplay. The reverse had happened for Valley and has come together nicely, guess I'm lucky. Though my priority is gameplay and balance, the history side will only draw more of a crowd to the map, with the "history zealots"...lol. Are you happy with the write-ups in the previous posts. I want to incorporate the team divisions, their history, and the beginning synopsis at the load of the map (its too bad you can't see it in multiplayer mode) in the near future. The longer history and the map load-downs will be on the post of the beta release on this forum and RO's.

Resevoir Dog

I will go back and check all the write ups one last time R.D., but if memory serves me correct they are accurate, up to date and thus ready for your map. The load out imo looks Great, look forward to the tweaks. I was using the AT guns this AM on the map you spoke off and they seemed pretty ineffective against the PzKw IV's, (hit one with 6 rounds before it started to smoke and 9 to kill, of course many hit the skirt armour also) so don't know how valuable they will be in defense of objectives (especially frontally against the Tiger and Panthers), but that of course may be ballistically accurate for 1937's. With them well concealed and plenty of cover and of course used in the team concept of the "defense" could make them a lot more useful. Either way they add to the overall appeal of the map and that is what counts.

[Reservoir Dog]

I completely agree with what you said One Shot. The Allies anti-tank defense is different from the Axis. Grant it that both sides will have pfs and satchels but in limited number. With the respawn time for pf and satchel pick-ups there is just going to be 1 guy loaded up in a wave at each of the 3 sites. I don't think that most people will wait 60 seconds for pfs and 45 seconds for satchels to spawn again (of course there will be a few). This makes the Axis AT guy strong because he can load up on pfs at any resupply area (but not satchels).

The difference is distance and team coordination as you pointed out. The satchel has to be thrown on top of a tank or right next to it (as long as the tank doesn't move). This doesn't always work as I have seen a satchel set on top of a tank, explode and the tank barely starts to smoke. The pfs you have to be relatively close (what about 20 meters for accuracy?) A one on one fight with a tank and an infantry, with these weapons, will result in the tank winning most of the time. Most of the time for these weapons to be effective the tank is distracted by an enemy tank or capping an objective and not paying attention.

This is very similar to the M1937 gun and the PTRD carried by the Allies AT role. The advantage to these is that they are long ranged. The disadvantage is that they aren't so powerful. I have found out that using the PTRD is more like sniping than a pf attack. You have to know the hit zones of a tank for it to be effective. The binoculars the AT role has is a big advantage. The PTRD will fire a very long distance shot but it has to be accurate and timed. Same with the M1937. And of course long range means you can get a few off before the tank is on top of you. In combination with friendly tanks these can be effective weapons. A one on one battle and the enemy tank will win most of the time. I have added a third M1937 to a hill overlooking the barracks. It can cover the bridge. I am thinking about replacing the single shot rilfe the Allies AT role has with a semi to offset the Axis At's SMG.

This will be alpha 2 and I want to try this out. We may find out that these additions bring nothing to the table. But I believe these roles and the AT guns will make players use team coordination even more (or get slaughtered:d ). The dependancy of tanks to infantry and vice versa should increase. That is how I see it now and if so will bring the map to an even more immerse, team battle.

Reservoir Dog

[Reservoir Dog]

Alpha 2 map of VOD is ready. I will pm Mike the link in a minute. There are a few more tweaks I have done to the map and want to see what everyone thinks. I haven't added bot pathing yet and still want to work a little on terrain but for the most part, all of the details have been added. The testing is going to see how the tank line, addition of sappers and M1937 will have on tactics and gameplay. After the feedback and any changes to the line-ups, I can finish bot pathing, map optimizing and release the beta to the community.:d

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

Alpha 2 map of VOD is ready.

Reservoir Dog

Fantastic Reservoir Dog! :wink1: Looking forward to seeing the tweaks/changes first hand. :d
The previous posts for your maps history are up to date and ready to go, feel free to use them! Do you want me to email them to you so you can cut/paste them?

[Reservoir Dog]

I have included what was posted previously but this is still alpha testing so if you want to revise anything let me know.

[Mike Nomad]

Alpha 2 map of VOD is ready. I will pm Mike the link in a minute. There are a few more tweaks I have done to the map and want to see what everyone thinks. I haven't added bot pathing yet and still want to work a little on terrain but for the most part, all of the details have been added. The testing is going to see how the tank line, addition of sappers and M1937 will have on tactics and gameplay. After the feedback and any changes to the line-ups, I can finish bot pathing, map optimizing and release the beta to the community.:d

Reservoir Dog

So far.... I like what I see. The loadouts look good and additions to the Allied Spawn will definitely make a difference. The M1937's look and behave well... and I am so glad you haven't infested the map, like fleas on a junkyard dog, with them as I have seen elsewhere.

One small item... I can still "hear" the water lapping against the banks while behind the ammo in the Church area. The visuals are better the "bright" we talked about is toned down.

Overall, looking good! :wink2:

[Mike Nomad]

Now, after bouncing it around a few times..... This Version is darn near ready to go B1. :wink2:



The AT Guns.... if you shoot at it from the rear, they seem to be invincible. Shoot at it from the front and wham!! Something ain't quite right.

[Reservoir Dog]

I have found 2 floating trees and will look into the water sounds by church, though I have been all up and down there and can't hear it. The AT gun issue you have pointed out seems to be something with the coding of the actor. I can look into it but I probably need the AH's permission to do so. It's not their final and that might be a bug they are trying to fix for the final, let you know. I wonder if shooting the AT from behind would kill the player manning the gun? No major bug that will effect gameplay so players won't be complaining.

I will be putting the final tweaks in the terrain to smooth it out and add bot support. This will take a little while to get it right. In the meantime, I will be popping my head into the server and try to watch a game with 30-32 players to see how everything is working. During the testing please let me know how its looking and if you find even the smallest issue let me know. Have fun guys.

Reservoir Dog

[ExoCet]

this seems to be a minor bug with AHZ AT guns, Seems that the players are shielded by something and you can't shoot them while they are manning the AT gun.

I am sure it will be fixed for the final version of it.
RD I keep meaning to PM you aboutr some stuff, But when I get the time to do it Forget what I want to ask.

Have you got MSN or something so I could chat with you at some time ?.
PM me with your MSN address if so.


BTW this map is looking awesome m8, couldn't have done better myself.
One last thing, The Guard tower you have in the map, I am guessing its the one Tochri adjust with the ladder or You have added a ladder to the stock one ?.

I have edited it in MAx so the rail is removed for the ladder, and players can get on it and down easier. If you would like it let me know m8.

[Reservoir Dog]

Thanks Exocet for that info. Since this is a know issue I will check with AHZ and see the progress of the bug fix and the timeline. If it is still an issue by the time the next alpha is released I will have to add some kind of barrier to the rear of them to explain why they can't be attacked (sandbags or small, 3 sided custom pillbox.) Looking back at the maps that are using them, the rear is protected by walls and hills and so not as much rear exposure as on VOD.

The guard tower was the first stock static mesh I really started playing with. I converted it to a bsp brush, adjusted dimensions to allow a player to walk around on it and inside, adjusted collision properties so it could be used and added the ladder. This was before I really started to get into bsp brushwork and didn't alter the rail at that time. I would love to see what you have created with max and incorporate it if possible or rework it with bsp brushes. Are there any other maps that are using your model that I can take a look at? It is a little awkward to crawl backwards to get down from there....lol.

I will pm you my MSN address so we can chat later.

Reservoir Dog

[ExoCet]

the only map I know the guard tower is on is one of my first ever for RO. mike still runs it from time to time I believe.

Its called Stadtangriff_armour.

Boy that seems a longtime ago, I think I have improved a little since then.
Anyway terrific work on VOD, keep it up m8.
I have sent you an IM in reply to your PM.

[Reservoir Dog]

I have fixed the trees, fixed some small details, fixed the AT role on allies so they have their secondary weapon. Playing around I have finally figured out how to use a subtraction brush on an additive and be about to convert to static mesh. I touched up the guard tower, nothing special but people can get in and out of it without crawling now. Exocet, if you have something better let me know but I know how busy you are so no worries if your hands are full.


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8244/towerqk5.th.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=towerqk5.jpg)

I have added sand bags to the rear of the M1937 guns. It will serve two purposes as tanks will know they can't shoot them directly from the back and the inf manning the gun has somewhere to hide if a tank rolls up on them suddenly. I couldn't put them too close or the inf couldn't dismount the gun.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4049/atgunky7.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atgunky7.jpg)

I have lightened up on the sunlight more so less extreme shadows and highlights. I also lightened up the fog underwater so its not as extreme and matches the shader a little better. I really just have to play with terrain and bot pathing now.

I remember just starting to play RO and was on Stadtangriff_armour. I had alot of fun. I remember seeing the guard tower and thinking,"Man I wish I could get up there."

RD

[OneShot]

I have fixed the trees, fixed some small details, fixed the AT role on allies so they have their secondary weapon. Playing around I have finally figured out how to use a subtraction brush on an additive and be about to convert to static mesh. I touched up the guard tower, nothing special but people can get in and out of it without crawling now.

RD

R.D.

You mean "lookout" tower correct? :wink2: Maybe it was me, but got on the VoD map last night by myself and for the life of me I could not destroy the AT guns with Tank fire! Do these guns have to be "crewed" in order to destroy them? I know you can not destroy them from the rear from previous posts. The map changed on me rather quickly, so I did not have much time to play with it, but I could not destroy the guns from the front, or sides with repeated rounds, both HE and AP. Had a couple smoking for a very short time, but never saw one destroyed. Probably me, or the fact I was there by myself. I love the addition of the radio in the Russian spawn. Works very well! Everything looks very good from what I can see R.D. I'll try to get back to the Valley of Death and play some more to see what I may have been doing wrong in regards to the AT guns.

[Mike Nomad]

The Church front entrance needs work its missing the two vertical support beams to hold the roof of the porch up.

Talk to Fennich he might have a solution to the invincible rear of the AT guns... :wink2:

Its been difficult to get a full server lately for testing since the "exclusive" 50 man server in Europe has pulled most of our active Euro players away.....

Make this map a 50 man map.

[Reservoir Dog]

I guess its more of a lookout tower. I'm not sure of the hit zones of the AT guns or if they are more vunerable if they are manned. This is more to do with the coding of the guns and not actual property settings (what mappers usually can change). The only property settings I can alter is the number of spawns (30 right now) and the respawn time (60 seconds right now). The only thing I have tried is hitting them with panzerfausts while they are unmanned. I have gotten mixed results. I have hit them from a back angle once and they have blown up. I have hit them 3 times from different angles and nothing. I'm not sure how they will affect gameplay cause I haven't seen alot of people of the server when I have popped in (i'm sure its been my timing, and the new 50 player server, but hopefully we will see a full server this weekend).

One shot, I was thinking a good way to integrate the history research you have done, and a place where most players can see it, would be to include it on the team selection screen. Right now it has the names of the armor, infantry divisions and the commander. Do you think we can take the historical information you have and put it into each team's description? Maybe to talk about the tank information you got and what led to the push from the Russians? If players are interested they can read it, if not they can just select the team button. What do you think?

It won't be a problem to add two support beams for the back (next to church) part of the porch. Completely overlooked that. Those little details really help. Another suggestion Mike had mentioned in game was the color of the barracks. It does have a washed out look and doesn't make sense that a while building and wall would be out on a country side. I was thinking army green would be good but it washed out russian tanks inside. I decided to try some camoflauge netting around the walls to see how it looked. I thought it gave it a real intense look without changing the inside color that I kinda like. I'm still playing with it but this a pic of the work in progress....


http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4581/barrackscd3.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barrackscd3.jpg)

What do you guys think? Go with this or try some other colors and textures? Let me know as I am still kicking this around, but am leaning towards the netting.

I did get to watch the other night alpha 1 map being played on "the damned priests" server. It was full. The first game the axis drew the allies tanks into the field between the church and the barn. A big tank battle was happening there while a number of halftracks went and capped the objectives on the other side of the map. Eventually the axis team won. The second game the allies formed a line of tanks across the map and kept pushing forward while taking objectives. They worked their way to the depot and have a big tank and inf battle there. They finally took the depot and won. Both battles were won with less than 5 minutes to the end of the round timer. THe teams seem to both have alot of team coordination (though I couldn't understand what they were saying) and used different tactics. It was fun to watch.

I will see you guys on the server in the next few days and hopefully this weekend.

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

I guess its more of a lookout tower.

One shot, I was thinking a good way to integrate the history research you have done, and a place where most players can see it, would be to include it on the team selection screen. Right now it has the names of the armor, infantry divisions and the commander. Do you think we can take the historical information you have and put it into each team's description?
Reservoir Dog

R.D. - only reason I mentioned Lookout Towers is due to the fact that they were used in the actual battle and a played an important role and were a key tactic.

I think integrating the history like that would be a good idea! The stock RO maps out of the box all have a brief narrative of the battle, if you want I can work on it, no problem to do a brief synopsis for both sides or a short summary of the battle.

As far as the AT guns lets wait for a full server and see how they play out. I know on other maps by Slyk (Tractor Works, Berzenia) and others using his AT guns you can take them out, crewed or not. I hit some of the guns with at least 8 or 10 shots and nothing from the front or flanks. On other maps you can destroy them with tank rounds and clear them for the advance. Something does not seem quite right , but I will check it again. Have you tried posting at the RO or After Hours forum to see what Slyk thinks? I know his AT guns are still a work in progress as such, so you may have to wait for their final version before the guns work totally correct?

I like the camo netting, like to see it from different angles on the map, but I think it works. Mike mentioned last night while we were both on the map there were still a couple of floating trees, forgot to mention it. Check with Mike for location or if I spot them I will post them for you. The map is looking very, very good my friend!

[Reservoir Dog]

Sorry One Shot, I was joking. You will have to forgive me but sometimes my humor is a little dry. I figured there was a reason to call them lookout towers. Just trying to get a laugh.

The historical narrative at the team selection screen doesn't have to be brief. It will create a scroll down screen so as much historical information you think to cover the battle is fine. I believe if someone will take the time to read it, they will probably read the whole thing. And as fascinating as the history is, it won't be dry material.

These should be the exact AT guns from Tractorworks. I basically pulled them from Tractorworks and put them into my map, preserving all of the settings. I ran through the properties again and nothing about damage or hit zones are mentioned. All of these settings are coded into the actor so in essence it is the exact same gun. I would like to see enough players on the map to see if someone would use them and the affected gameplay. The only other difference from these guns and the ones on another server running Tractorworks is the AB2 mutator. The breakout map uses both so I'm not sure that's it either. Maybe a day in the near future I will get out there with Mike and whoever is on at that time and run some tests. I would like more info on a bug before going to the developer.

I was kinda liking the camo netting but as I was inspecting the wall area I noticed some strange prism reflections off the inside wall under the top walk platform. There were some pink and blue streaks. Because of the shadows of the walk platform, the natural sunlight, and lights from the barracks building, it was causing weird stuff on the texture. To knock out two birds with one stone, I decided to retexture instead of the camo netting:mad: . I went with a hunter's green, which won't fade Russians tanks inside, with a painted concrete texture (see below).



http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2346/barracksqd4.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracksqd4.jpg)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8866/barracks1mp1.th.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barracks1mp1.jpg)

And I added support beams to hold up church porch.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/376/churchyq9.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=churchyq9.jpg)

I know that 50 player maps are the future of RO. Once I get this map out as a beta I will release the 50 player version right after.

Oh I have found 4 of those pesky flying trees. One by pond outside of axis spawn. One in a group of three by the river. And two on the outside of center treed area on allies side. When I get into tweaking terrain I will find anymore before the beta is released (hopefully that's all of them).

Anyway, see you guys out there.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

There's another floating tree just off the main road near the ammo dump.

We are getting there.... the colors for the Barracks are good now... the porch supports look right and as added thought, I had no trubs at all nailing the AT guns frontally. Only from the rear. Invincible they should not be. I believe the codeis still beta, but then, how long must these things be "in beta"? A full quarter would seem like enough time.

[OneShot]

Sorry One Shot, I was joking. You will have to forgive me but sometimes my humor is a little dry. I figured there was a reason to call them lookout towers. Just trying to get a laugh.

Reservoir Dog

R.D.; I know, so is mine! I was messing with you also my friend:p I will work on the history and post it here! I like the appearance changes on the barracks and church also! See you in the "Valley of Death"

[Reservoir Dog]

There are a great game I was watching on the server today. There were like 4 or 5 players per team and the Axis started out as all inf except Mike in his panther. The Allies were all tank. One of the Axis snipers was pretty good and picked off a number of Allies popping their heads out of their tanks. The Allies adjusted their roles to compensate and had a few inf, sniper and anti-tank. One stand-off had an Axis mger trapped behind some sandbags on top of the bunker by one of the AT guns. He held him there and the mg tried to get position of the AT gun to knock him out. But the AT gun kept launching shells to pin him down. He obviously gave away his position to Mike who came around the barn and he knocked him out with one or two shots. It was intense and exactly the kind of stand-offs I was looking for in the map. I think it went for 5 games as it was tied at 2 each.

I am liking the balance. With all of the additional tweaks in the next alpha I think we are almost to the beta.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

They were excellent, highly engrossing games.....

It doesn't get any better than that. :wink2:

[OneShot]

Figured out why I could not destroy the AT guns, I was in a Russian T-34/85!!!! Got on the server tonight and rolled out in a German Panther and was eliminating the AT guns with one shot frontally, no problems. Then I remembered I was riding in a T-34/85 the previous night checking out the map and must have been shooting the guns from my "T" wagon. So I switched to make sure, and that was it! :o Dah!!! As a Russian you can not eliminate your own AT guns, Sorry for the confusion in my previous post. :whaa1:

Wait a minute, you can eliminate another of your own tanks as a Russian, its a screw up called TKing which will get you removed from the server! :eek: But theoretically due to the fact that you can not destroy your own AT guns in a tank, and the fact the AT guns now are currently invincible from the rear by armor, would it not be be a good place for a German with a bunch of panzerfaust to seek cover behind the gun shield and pop up to take pot shots at passing Russian armor? You would need infantry support to eliminate him! Especially due to the fact that if you dismount your tank, then get back in all you are then is a rolling mg nest (gun bug). Of course its not a good idea to eliminate your own defensive positions, especially if the AT guns are spawn limited, but mite be an exploit to some degree or another for the Axis??? :confused: Just thinking out loud guys!

[Reservoir Dog]

Figured out why I could not destroy the AT guns, I was in a Russian T-34/85!

Oh, a comedian huh? Your name is now Private Joker. Do you like that name? Sir, yes sir (remember Full Metal Jacket) ......lol.

If I'm not mistaken, the bug is more of a hit zone problem of the AT gun itself. Infantry manning the gun can be killed independently of the gun exploding. I had Mike (what a friend) gun me down with his mgs while I was manning one today. I died at usual and the gun was intact. I figure that a sniper or mg could kill the gunner but not the gun. Mike did get a little carried away and gunned me down before I got to the AT guns, but I know his heart was in the right place, lol. This means a tank could not blow up the AT gun from directly behind it but definitely kill a solder manning it. There is no invisible shield to protect anyone using the gun or standing behind it. This make this bug somewhat minor and have little change on tactics. Just being on a slight angle from the back will allow the gun to be blown up, I did it with pfs.

A suggestion was made in game to alter terrain for the back area on the gun. Unfortunately, whatever is going to do the blocking can't be directly behind it. It has to be a good 8-10 meters away or you can't dismount from the gun (as shown in the pic of sandbags previously). I think I will stick with sandbags for now and hopefully when they release the final version, I can incorporate and delete sandbags (very quick process). If it takes longer for the final release of AT gun I may add more sandbags for the next alpha release so there are not just some sandbags sitting right behind the gun. Maybe almost encircling it, that would look better.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

I can understand the problems with the AT guns and agree they are minor. Valley of Death is however, progressing very nicely... it truly is a fun map to play and when in release allowing 50 or more players... this puppy will yeild hours and hours of edge of the seat entertainment.

Reservior Dog, Valley of Death's author, deserves a hearty "Thank You!" for listening to the users and taking all their suggestions seriously, considering them and implementing many.

[OneShot]

Oh, a comedian huh? Your name is now Private Joker. Do you like that name? Sir, yes sir (remember Full Metal Jacket) ......lol.
Reservoir Dog


I do like the name R.D., but I would need a new signature :whaa1: Sir, yes sir - this is my rifle, this is my gun, one is for...... (one of my all time favorite flick I may add)

[OneShot]

I can understand the problems with the AT guns and agree they are minor. Valley of Death is however, progressing very nicely... it truly is a fun map to play and when in release allowing 50 or more players... this puppy will yield hours and hours of edge of the seat entertainment.

Reservoir Dog, Valley of Death's author, deserves a hearty "Thank You!" for listening to the users and taking all their suggestions seriously, considering them and implementing many.

Absolutely Mike!! Reservoir Dog is probably imo the best mapper out there when it comes to listening to all suggestions (no matter how dumb), opinions and has a sincere willingness to try to improve his work for the enjoyment of all RO players. Plus remember R.D. has done this all on his own, no colaboration. Now talk about dedication to something, try mapping yourself sometime! His talent speaks for itself, just go play the Valley of Death map, it will blow you away!!! :bravo:

[Reservoir Dog]

Thanks guys for the cudos but in reality I have had alot of help. I saw Sturgisov Farm b3 running on a german server the other day. I jumped in because I haven't seen that map being played in a while and I was just shocked how far we have come with VOD A2.

I can look back and see how my understanding of what makes a good map has changed dramatically. My only priority when starting to make maps was gameplay. This hasn't changed but I have added alot more priorities now. With the history side being covered by One Shot, it has focused me into some research and being able to use weather condictions, landscape, meshes, and textures that reflect a true place and time. The division and commander names and verification of tanks has really taken a load off my mind and allows me to work the map more and research less. The history has done everything to help make the map more immersive, and add a real "feel" to the map. They add an atmosphere and background that I think most players enjoy and the history that the RO community likes to see.

The privilege of being able to alpha test this map on the RGN servers has helped develop this map so much. Being able to watch players has given me insight on terrain tweaking, adding defense points, and adding advantages and disadvantages for both teams. It has given me ideas and allowed me to get opinions from casual players who would not visit any forum to post. Mike and I have shared ideas and opinions on this forum and in game which has led to some great enhancements to the map. Everything from the church bell ringing when shot to the creation and on-going modification of the barracks. This process of map developing is so helpful to iron out the little kinks, try new ideas, and fix all of the small details. By the time the beta hits the community it will be a finely tuned machine.

Alpha 3 is looking great. With all of the tweaks I could probably let it go now, but I do want to add the bot pathing and finish tweaking the landscape. I think the bot support will bring players to practice their sniping and tanking skills even on non-peak hours.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

Be aware, that due to a bug, too many bot paths can spoil the broth... :)

[Mike Nomad]

We had 32 players today in the map and it was fine sailing.... :wink2:

[Reservoir Dog]

The bot paths will be mostly straight shots to objects and a few flank manuevers that I have seen other players using, like axis spawn to church, swing around to bunker, patroling the river banks. There will be lots of areas of the map that the bots won't go like the far areas of the map, similar to Arad. My biggest concern is bots driving a tank in the depot and getting out through the doors, or them crossing the bridge (a static mesh) ok. I know I can get them to exit the tank and clear infantry from the bunker and church, they were doing that on the farm. There is an art to bot pathing just like map optimization. Sure you can just throw so anti-portals and roadpaths down on a map and say its done. There is alot of tweaking you can do with both of these that alot of mappers don't spend the time to do. I have found that the more time you take to adjust these things the more of an enjoyable experience the players will have and the less "stupid" the bots act.

I am dissappointed I missed the 32 player game. Been wanting to watch that. Mike, I know you have been out there alot more than I with different amounts of players. My question is the AT guns. Are they in good spots? Do I need to add a few more? I have seen games where inf are manning them or sticking real close by to them, hopping in and out, and games where they are completely ignoring them. They aren't neccessary to win the game but do balance the role of the Axis AT soldier. Just wanting to gather more info on them.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Yes, the full server was grand... and it behaved well.

As for the AT guns... they're fine where they are... I got nailed a few times by them. All is doing dandy.

[OneShot]

Yes, the full server was grand... and it behaved well.

As for the AT guns... they're fine where they are... I got nailed a few times by them. All is doing dandy.

The games in the VoD yesterday with 30+ players was insane!!! The way the map should be played!! Tanks everywhere, seperate armor/infantry battles going on in different spots all over the map, snipers having a field day, sappers sneaking up fausting and satching the tanks, HT's and Carriers scurrying around, it was awesome! Only problem I found was the map ended to fast, then when we switched to another map the players fell off like crazy. The Valley of Death map really brings them to the server. When the final version is released I think a dedicated server for just VoD may be in order! Much the same as Danzig or Arad maps are today on some servers! Good job Reservoir Dog, was a real fun time yesterday!

[Mike Nomad]

Increase the game time.... Oneshot is right, it was over far too fast.

I'd love to see a Mutator written to shut down the OBJECTIVE CAPTURE scheme and make a TEAM DEATHMATCH scheme.

VOD with TDM would be supreme. :wink2:

[Reservoir Dog]

Are you guys thinking 60 minutes would be good? I would really hate to go much more than that because I think that is a threshhold for maps. There are maps that are under an hour, an hour, and more than an hour. The more than an hour maps are usually huge or epic (moving from a location to a location).

I have done my final sweep of details and fixing minor things. I am ready to just work on ironning out some on the rough terrain. I haven't gave a map update recently so:


Lots of tweaking of the lighting. Lowered sunlight and increased ambient light for less hard shadows and less bright highlights. Created special lights for certain objects that glow because of the light blue sunlight: tents at axis spawn, bus at allies spawn, silos, etc. This has given the map a much more realistic look.
Replaced the barbed wire fence around tower with the fence mesh of the farmhouse. No blocking volumes are needed now and has eliminated the bug of blowing up a vehicle if it ran into it.
Barn has been reworked. Debris on the roof now, so the hole is more natural. Reworked the underground tunnel and objective volume.
Bunker entrance has doors and a doorway instead of a big hole to go into.
Rope and grapple at barracks had new texture for a realistic look.
More supplies are at the barracks for cover of inf. Tanks still have manuevering room and great positions.
Allies AT role has a pistol and grenade that the Axis AT doesn't. Axis has SMG and pfs. Allies AT can't have SMG and PTRD since they are both considered primary weapons.
Fixed outside lighting of the depot and replaced the texture of roof.
Added more map optimizations. This map should be optimized enough for 50 players.
As previously mentioned, the bunker wall has a new coat of paint, lookout tower rail is fixed, and support beams for church's porch added. I also moved the broken cart behind the church so tanks can go completely around the church courtyard and out the hole in back of the stone wall.After I work on the terrain I will give Mike the A3 map for the server. It should be this week. This should be the final alpha before the beta release. I will work on the bot paths and can run and test that on my machine for beta. Other than anything you guys find in A3, I will just have to add the history, touch-up overhead map, and the beta will be ready to go.

After the beta is released to the community these are my plans:

To make the 50 player version (shouldn't take more than a few weeks)
Work with DarkestHour community
Spare time learn coding mutators for a TDM and country name tag mod. OF course, if there was a collaboration with this it would speed up the process.
After giving beta 1 about a month of circulation in the communty and postings in the forums, I will probably release the final. After the extensive alpha testing we have done, I see no need for a beta 2. This will bring closure to my first project.Reservoir Dog

PS: I have taken care of the pesky trees, I count 4 total. When testing A3 let me know if anything is out of place.

[Mike Nomad]

Sounds like a plan to me.... The map behaved very well with a full, 32 man server.

[OneShot]

I noticed a couple of those pesky floating trees about yesterday. Not many but a couple here and there RD. Will be posting rough draft of the abbreviated history soon here. We can then edit it from there. Glad to hear you are going to put your talents to work for the Darkest Hour mod. I believe this is an excellent project and you will be an asset to the team over there!.

[Reservoir Dog]

I'm sorry I missed those games but my girlfriend is feeling neglected (lol). I've explained to her my mistress if VOD but she doesn't get it(lol). That's exactly how intense the map should be, different battles going on in different places with inf and tank. Changing stances from defending to attacking at a seconds notice. I'm sure teamplay had to enter the picture with so much going on.

I've taken care of those pesky flying trees (I hate those things). I have counted 4 total. When running through the terrain I will have a chance to go over all of them. A3 will be the one to tell me if anything looks off. Essentially that will be the map that goes beta. Thanks again for the history side One Shot, I really appreciate it.

I will go with 60 minutes on the A3 map. If after its seen some good games we can determine if the time is good. I'm not sure we want to run it 24/7 as I think people tend to burn out of somethings if its repetitive. I am looking forward to the weekend marathon, if that's still on Mike.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, when the beta is released, I will post all people who have contributed to it (the very least thing I can do) and if there are players, RGN community or not, that have given good feedback to you to pass on I would like to mention them in something like "Map testers" or something similar. A few people come to mind like Hell_Hund, scrappy, Sgt. Drex, Horatio, Oberstjohn, and others so if you can post them I'd appreciate it. Not sure if Exocet or Amizure want that kind of recognition but Mike can find out for me.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

I'm sorry I missed those games but my girlfriend is feeling neglected (lol). I've explained to her my mistress if VOD but she doesn't get it(lol). That's exactly how intense the map should be, different battles going on in different places with inf and tank. Changing stances from defending to attacking at a seconds notice. I'm sure teamplay had to enter the picture with so much going on.

VOD is, I am certain, like a mistress...

I will go with 60 minutes on the A3 map. If after its seen some good games we can determine if the time is good. I'm not sure we want to run it 24/7 as I think people tend to burn out of somethings if its repetitive. I am looking forward to the weekend marathon, if that's still on Mike. Of course its still a go. 60 minutes should be ideal.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, when the beta is released, I will post all people who have contributed to it (the very least thing I can do) and if there are players, RGN community or not, that have given good feedback to you to pass on I would like to mention them in something like "Map testers" or something similar. A few people come to mind like Hell_Hund, scrappy, Sgt. Drex, Horatio, Oberstjohn, and others so if you can post them I'd appreciate it. Not sure if Exocet or Amizure want that kind of recognition but Mike can find out for me.

[RGN] Hell_Hund is an RGN member and Server Admin
[RGN] Tru3slaughter is an RGN member and Server Admin
Sgt. Drex is an RGN "regular"
Oberstjohn is an RGN "regular"
Scrappy and Horatio are players on the RGN Servers

Yers, I'd say Exocet and Amizaur both deserve recognition for their helpful efforts. I look forward to A3.

[Reservoir Dog]

[RGN] Hell_Hund is an RGN member and Server Admin
[RGN] Tru3slaughter is an RGN member and Server Admin
Sgt. Drex is an RGN "regular"
Oberstjohn is an RGN "regular"
Scrappy and Horatio are players on the RGN Servers

Yers, I'd say Exocet and Amizaur both deserve recognition for their helpful efforts. I look forward to A3.

Is there anyone else that you can think of? I was thinking there were more, but I can't remember their names. If you think of some more players let me know.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

OK, I'll don my thinking cap and compile a list....:)

[OneShot]

Is there anyone else that you can think of? I was thinking there were more, but I can't remember their names. If you think of some more players let me know.

RD


How about 101 SS WereWolf, and some of our German friends or go the server stats section to see whom has put in a large amount of time in the "Valley?"

[Mike Nomad]

Hauptscharfuhrer
101.SS_SnoopWolf
Part_No.427G-9
LDBlues
[RGN]_SPARTAN
CartoonJoe
CharlieDontSurf
Capt_Caveman
{CuF}Rough_Rider
Fletch
Heinz
Guderian(GER)
101.SSCelticWereWolf
GillouH
Rapier_21
Nanner
<RTR>rec.Greylag
tsamptrail

There's more..... but I'm tired..... I'll get more.

[OneShot]

RD, have to go back through the post but generally how much history are you looking for (paragraphs, sentences, words) for the beginning of the map section for each side (Allies, Axis)? How much will the intro allow you to post?

[Reservoir Dog]

A few of those names definitely rings a bell Mike. It doesn't have to be a list of all players just ones that visit on a consistant basis or contribute feedback. Basically, anyone you would consider to be more than just a casual player popping their head in to see what's going on. I'll let that be your call since you are most of the time on when a game is on. By the way I really like the game tracker website. Neat stuff.

One Shot, I guess we could go with a few paragraphs. I have been reviewing some of the other map's info pages and alot of them go into strategy for each side to win and very brief history. We can skip the strategy because this is more of a domination type map and not really an attacker/defender one. I would like it to be pure history. You have already posted alot of info. I'm not sure if you want to cover the tanks, fighting condictions, events leading up to the conflict, casualties of the battle, significance of the territory, or a mixture of some of them. I'm not sure of the limit of space there is but I have seen a few long ones (which creates a slider bar to read it entirely). I would start with what you found the most interesting, why was it so significant, what held your interest the most. I know you did alot of research on the tanks involved and that you are a tank enthusist. If you just wanted to cover the tank history, I'm good with it. Whatever you found the most significant, I'm sure that most people will too. The general synopsis you wrote previously was great at the map selection screen. Unfortunitely, on-line players never see it (along with my screen shots), This screen everyone can see and its broken into 2 sections for both sides. You can add as much as you want for both and I'll see if it will fit.

I have finished tweaking the mountain rough spots and most of the map terrain except around the river (save the best for last). I got on it this evening and couldn't get off.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Are you talking about the game tracker site we have linked to our servers here??
I really like it and the best part is, its improving every week.

[OneShot]

@ RD - Ok, get on the write up and post it here for you to check out. Someday when TWI includes your "Valley of Death" map with the next official update (they should) :) then the history, and all the objectives/strategy will be ready and avialable for all the players to see in Multiplayer mode!

@ Mike - Yes, the tracker should show whom have put in their time on the map to help debug it as it were as well as those whom just pop in for a few rounds on the new map out of curiosity and fun.

[TruSlaughter]

Hauptscharfuhrer
101.SS_SnoopWolf
Part_No.427G-9
LDBlues
[RGN]_SPARTAN
CartoonJoe
CharlieDontSurf
Capt_Caveman
{CuF}Rough_Rider
Fletch
Heinz
Guderian(GER)
101.SSCelticWereWolf
GillouH
Rapier_21
Nanner
<RTR>rec.Greylag
tsamptrail

There's more..... but I'm tired..... I'll get more. don't forget OneShot he's put in quite a bit of research and testing time

[Reservoir Dog]

Oh, don't worry, Mike and One Shot will have their own "thanks" section. They will both, of course. be listed in "alpha map testers" section too.

Reservoir Dog

[Reservoir Dog]

I will pm Mike the link to the file. I am happy with it. With all of the updates previously mentioned, a 60 minute round time, and the terrain tweaks, I think its good to go. I have decided not to add a barrier behind the AT guns. This wouldn't allow the inf manning it to be attacked from behind. If it was manned without backup this should be very vunerable from a back or side assault. Most of the time they are destroyed from a frontal assault anyway. And when the final version is released, that should resolve the minor bug. Hope to see some intense games out there while I'm working on the bot paths for the beta.

Reservoir Dog

[Mike Nomad]

I will pm Mike the link to the file. I am happy with it. With all of the updates previously mentioned, a 60 minute round time, and the terrain tweaks, I think its good to go. I have decided not to add a barrier behind the AT guns. This wouldn't allow the inf manning it to be attacked from behind. If it was manned without backup this should be very vunerable from a back or side assault. Most of the time they are destroyed from a frontal assault anyway. And when the final version is released, that should resolve the minor bug. Hope to see some intense games out there while I'm working on the bot paths for the beta.

Reservoir Dog

In, up and running...

[OneShot]

RD;
I spent about a 35 to 45 minutes this afternoon in the Valley of Death map by myself just riding around checking things out. The map looks good, very good imo! I crawled on every building, looked in all the nooks and crannies, rode the entire battlefield, and could find no bugs/errors/anomalies what so ever RD! This map is SWEET.

But something just wasn't quite right, although I could not put my hands on it right off the top of my head. I guess I was seeing the map with a whole new perspective while I was there all by my lonesome, not sure. Then Mike joined me and before I left it occurred, and I think Mike would agree, (probably way to late at this stage), that the map looks too good!!! Other than the blown out barn, and smoking vehicle the map is practically pristine! It is too beautiful I think, if that makes any sense to you? I am not trying to be critical or a wise a**, hope you know me better than that by now! Not my way RD!

Its just I think it could use some more battle damage, some type of war props strewn about. A knocked out tank or two here and there, a few shell craters maybe, perhaps place the Russian Katusha rocket launcher trucks that were in the spawn at one time in a few different areas on the map? How about putting the original mortar in a sand bag revetment some where on the map in an empty area for apperance sake? Maybe some more stuff along the lines of the burning/smoking vehicle between the command bunker and the barracks on the hillside? This would give cover for the infantry when attacking armor, as well as give to the players an greater overall feel of realism following a opening barrage that almost always proceeded an attack or counter attack.

I know this is way to late, and I should have mentioned it sooner. It just did not occur to me Guy! Also I can only imagine the amount of work it would be on your part to even make slight changes to the map at this stage? Plus I don't know how it would effect the fps or optimization of the map either. I guess this is just a case of Monday Morning Quarterbacking R.D., No matter the map looks and plays GREAT, and players are gonna enjoy themselves immensely, that is the bottom line imo. Don't hate me for this post, I really think the Valley of Death is an excellent piece of work my friend! Looking forward to playing your latest version of this map on a full server!

[Reservoir Dog]

I played today with about 10-15 players with Hell_Hund. We had fun. I think most of the Axis team were newbies because they were all infantry roles. I joined at tank commander and talked a few into changing and driving tanks. It went 5 rounds. I believe it was the 3 round that we took quickly because my team was receptive to my orders and rally points as commander, and we held the allies at the fields closest to the bridge. In the meantime, the infantry capped the objectives. They didn't fall for that again and spread out their positions. The rest of the battles went the whole round time.

Actually Mike had made a similar suggestion One Shot. Dude, I could never hate anyone for making suggestions. Ok, there is the blown truck, the damaged barn and there is a big crater with a blown tank between the church and bunker. The church stone wall is messed up, could be age or soldiers and tanks running through it. The furniture in the bunker is messed up like either a fire-fight, or the axis left is a big hurry. I was thinking about blowing a hole in the bunker but never could decide which wall is less significant. The back and west walls are important for allies and the east and front are important for axis for defense.

I had thought about putting in shelled craters but couldn't really find a decent spot for them. There are a number of places for cover and hiding for inf: hills, objectives, tree area, under bridge, roofs, tower, silos, wheat fields, etc. I felt at that time that if I added more craters that there would actually be too much cover for inf from tanks. I want an allies inf to hold his breath while he runs from the bunker to the barn or to the barracks. If an axis tank rolls out of spawn, he will find himself in an open field with a tank. The whole excitement for me when playing inf is dodging tanks. I never want it to be too easy. It seems to me when you play alot of RO maps that have pfs laying around, there are a few hiding spaces, but not alot of them and lots of open area. That to me is the skill of the pf, finding a good place to use it, not seeing great places everywhere and choosing. I wanted the inf to work the hills, little mountain area, and trees more. Using natural terrain requires more skill than man-made ones like craters, trenches, buildings, walls. I can add some more war damage but too much cover is going to make people run and gun more and be less afraid of the tanks. I want inf to look all around, use binoculars if they have them, listen for tanks on other sides of hills, communicate with their team on enemy tank positions, get back-up from team tankers, and have to make a few long walks to get to cover. That to me is the excitement. There are alot of hills now in this map so I'm not sure craters will be used to much or seen too often either. If you have some suggestions where to put a couple I'll see if I can add them without making the map "too cluttered" and providing too much cover from point to point.

From the bunker to the barracks I see two ways for infantry. Treed area and small mountain range. Neither are too safe but not impossible either. And their is nothing wrong with infantry to ask for back-up from fellow tankers. I am hoping to see more of that kind of teamwork in the future as people play the map more.

RD

[OneShot]

All good points my friend, no disagreement here. Not wanting or wishing to see the Valley of Death map look cluttered, after all the battle took place in a valley with farms and villages between open rolling country, not a war torn street clash such as Lenningrad. While the map gives the impression of being very "BIG" it is not on the scale of OREL or BDJ in terms of area, so with more debris strewn around you are right it would seem jammed up for sure. I like the effect of the burning truck, just thinking out loud and wondering what if any visual impact a very few additional battle effects off to the sides or on wings would make. Probably not a whole lot or even justify the additional work involved to create them.

I believe both sides heaped massive arty barrages on the area and flew countless fighter/bomber sorties prior to the jumping off time. Maybe a few shattered trees here and there would add to that feel, without impeding the flow of the battle? But then again most players are looking toward the game play, so I would say leave it alone, it is a really fun map to play! You clearly have a realistic historical vision for your map and obviously know how to achieve this, which you have RD. I guess that is why it is a "combined arms" map, in the first place. You have a good feel how to balance out both (infantry & armor) players on your map, and make it exciting to choose either role. Which imo is not easy to do!

Looking forward to this weekends marathon, see you there!

[Reservoir Dog]

I'm thinking that adding a few shelled crators and destroyed tanks off the sides of the roads from the spawns to the objectives might look good and not clutter up the interior areas. The roads were probably a big target for mortars and planes and a few more destroyed tanks would make it more of a war zone. It wouldn't be a big deal to add them and the way I have optimized the map shouldn't be even an issue with map performance.

What do you guys think of the walls of the barracks? Sometimes I look at it and am happy with it. Sometimes not. Can't make up my mind. Do you think it would look better if it was wooden or brick? Whatever it is it should be an earth tone color to blend with the countryside. I will try to research some more on what was used by the Germans. I think the green doesn't look right with the orange doors (which I could just change to doors) but I am thinking out loud that maybe the wall should change. Let me know what your impressions are.

I was reviewing the historical write-up that One Shot did on the first page of this thread. Everything is in there that we need to fill into the map. If you are ok with it, One Shot? Didn't know if you wanted to focus on something else but you have already done alot of work to help me out. There are paragraphs that talk about each side's role. That's all I really need but I will let you decide if you want anything else.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Damage can come in many forms.

Shell holes in walls
Holes in roofs
Bullet Pock Marks in Walls
Craters from both Bombs and Arty
Rubble Strewn about
Uprooted Trees
Broken Trees
Fallen TreesAs for the barracks, a few shell holes on the walls and a few fallen trees in non-obstructive locations will break up the pristine look and add to the realistic appearance of a war torn area.

[OneShot]

@ RD - I have no problem with the original write up, though I believed you wanted me to more refine it as to specific units, but if you are happy I am happy! Basically all I was going to do was take the posts and tweak them for you. Would you like me to email or pm the posts to you so do not have to write it down by hand? Yes the green walls look good but I do not think they are historically accurate also! During construction the Germans would have used what ever materials that were available locally, and they would have conscripted the labor as well. Too bad the camo netting did not work. I can research it a little, let you know what I come up with and the roads (and assembly areas [spawns]) would indeed be a key target and any destroyed vehicles would have just been pushed to the side to clear the advance. . RD

@ Mike - Yes along those lines, small details to add flavor, not hoping or wishing for a total rework of RD 's map either! It looks real nice as is, just may need a little "roughing up" perhaps imo? Certainly not critical one way or the other.

[OneShot]

RD;
I see on the RO forums where a guy is asking MOZ to remove the Tiger from his BDJ (Black Day July) map due to the fact that there were only 4 Tigers in the general area of the battle and those were attached to another unit than he has listed in his intro! When you post your map info there get ready for this sort of stuff! Again when you see this nonsense let me answer them for you as I am your unofficial "official historian" for the Valley of Death map? Love to take on guys like that, I will bury them in so much history it will come out their ears!!!

[Reservoir Dog]

Funny story. My girlfriend was over when I was reading One Shot's post. She wanted to know what I was doing so I filled her in. She looked at my big green concrete walls and said, no way. How did they make such perfect walls? And she agreed it was too pretty. She asked how could they have made them so perfect without a factory or refinery close by. If they had them made and transported them there, they wouldn't have made it across that wooden bridge. I said dam, your right. Thinking about what one shot had said about using materials in the area gave me an idea about using the bricks that were used for the bunker. At first I wanted everything different but she and one shot's post made me try it. As soon as I dropped in the textures I knew it was a big improvement. I am extremely happy now with the bunker. Sorry to keep changing my mind but here is what it looks like now.


http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2311/b6it8.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b6it8.jpg)
Inside the barracks building. Brick walls instead of concrete. Bricks and wood would have been easier to get across the bridge.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/133/b5sl2.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b5sl2.jpg)
Outside of barracks building
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2192/b4jn1.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b4jn1.jpg)
The texture seems to work with everything. I could have been an old fort that the Axis just built inside of. No more pretty walls.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2717/b3zi8.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b3zi8.jpg)
Top view
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1703/b2ix8.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b2ix8.jpg)
Front view
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/7973/b1fm4.th.jpg (http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b1fm4.jpg)
Front side view

The wood and earth colored bricks give it a really natural look. It doesn't have the prism effect and blends. I'm good with it now.

One shot, I am good with the write up but if you want to touch it up that would be great. You can just post here and I can cut and paste each line into editor. You have done alot of work on this and I almost hesitate asking for more. Thanks for your work once again.

RD;
I see on the RO forums where a guy is asking MOZ to remove the Tiger from his BDJ (Black Day July) map due to the fact that there were only 4 Tigers in the general area of the battle and those were attached to another unit than he has listed in his intro! When you post your map info there get ready for this sort of stuff! Again when you see this nonsense let me answer them for you as I am your unofficial "official historian" for the Valley of Death map? Love to take on guys like that, I will bury them in so much history it will come out their ears!!!

God I hate those history zealots! Am I starting to sound like someone? (hehe) In the release I'll announce that One Shot is the "official" historican on the project and that he can answer any questions about the history. That should be enough to whip them into a frenzy so we will see what they come up with (as if they need any enticement). I say go for it. I'm sure you will be approached to do history research for others after putting the horde in its place.

Damage can come in many forms.

Shell holes in walls
Holes in roofs
Bullet Pock Marks in Walls
Craters from both Bombs and Arty
Rubble Strewn about
Uprooted Trees
Broken Trees
Fallen TreesAs for the barracks, a few shell holes on the walls and a few fallen trees in non-obstructive locations will break up the pristine look and add to the realistic appearance of a war torn area.

I will drop in some bombed craters on the side of the roads with destroyed tanks and broken/fallen trees. I doubt there will be any more smoke unless I move it from the destroyed truck. The more emitters (smoke, fire, exhust, waterfall, spotlights etc.) the less overall fps you will get on the map(especially outside where you can see it from many parts of a map). Nothing will obstruct the paths. There should be little difference in performance of the map.

Reservoir Dog

[OneShot]

RD;
Wowie Zowie!!!!! (that's for you Mike) The barracks look GREAT!!! You got it!! Only problem now is you are gonna have to list your girlfriend on the map as a "analyical/creative consultant!" :wink1: Got to give credit where credit is due, right? :) I would not bother with smoking wrecks, not worth the hit on fps. Just a little battle destruction here and there will go along way for players inital emersion into the battlefield. No problem on tweaking the history a little bit, I have it all saved in MS WORD so I'll have to do is mess around a little bit, glad to do it. Besides I do not like the look of the intro where it says "history to follow in Beta!" Feel a little responsible for that RD. I'll get it done and post it up here.

[Mike Nomad]

HINT:



Be nice if we did the marathon this weekend with Beta1 :wink2:

[Reservoir Dog]

HINT:



Be nice if we did the marathon this weekend with Beta1 :wink2:

Honestly when we were first talking about a marathon weekend I was thinking we were talkling about the beta. Since we know that A3 is solid, I can finish adding the war zone stuff by tonite. I will have to redo the overhead map since it will be released to community. If one shot can get me the revised history part by tonight or tomorrow, I can post the beta on this and RO's forum before Saturday. I'm only half way through the bots but most beta 1s don't have bot support anyway. I'm good with it if one shot is.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Honestly when we were first talking about a marathon weekend I was thinking we were talkling about the beta. Since we know that A3 is solid, I can finish adding the war zone stuff by tonite. I will have to redo the overhead map since it will be released to community. If one shot can get me the revised history part by tonight or tomorrow, I can post the beta on this and RO's forum before Saturday. I'm only half way through the bots but most beta 1s don't have bot support anyway. I'm good with it if one shot is.

RD

I don't mind RGN being mentioned in the Overhead Map :d

[OneShot]

If one shot can get me the revised history part by tonight or tomorrow, I can post the beta on this and RO's forum before Saturday. I'm only half way through the bots but most beta 1s don't have bot support anyway. I'm good with it if one shot is.

RD


I'm good with it RD, have the history here tonight, but may be a little late. I normally do not get off work until around 4:00 pm and my 6 year old daughter has soccer tonight at 6:00 pm, but I will get on it as soon as I get home. Hopefully have it done a short time latter, by 10:00 pm at the latest!

[Reservoir Dog]

I don't mind RGN being mentioned in the Overhead Map :d

We can do that. I will put "Alpha Testing: RGN servers" next to my name.

@One shot. Cool. I have a life too outside of RO and I know what a juggling act one can have. Thanks. By the way, the message on the alpha map "history to be added on beta" is just a placeholder. It wasn't meant for anything else. It's just a way to remember things to add and where. I use it on website creation and other software. Sorry you felt bad.

I'll be up late working on finishing touches. I will also have to start thinking of everything for the post, maybe a cool banner.

RD

[Reservoir Dog]

Hauptscharfuhrer
101.SS_SnoopWolf
Part_No.427G-9
LDBlues
[RGN]_SPARTAN
CartoonJoe
CharlieDontSurf
Capt_Caveman
{CuF}Rough_Rider
Fletch
Heinz
Guderian(GER)
101.SSCelticWereWolf
GillouH
Rapier_21
Nanner
<RTR>rec.Greylag
tsamptrail



Are we good with with the names, anyone else you can think of?

RD

[OneShot]

RD, what do you think? This is what I have come up with for the Allies intro/narrative:



The Carpatho-Dukla operation was began by the Soviet Army on September 8, 1944. The strategic Dukla Pass cuts through the Carpathian Mountains in Northwestern Slovakia. If wrestled from the Germans the Carpathian Mountain passes (particularly Dukla Pass) would be opened to the Soviet Military for a rapid descent from Poland into the Hungarian Plains. Yet the battle for control of this key region in Eastern Slovakia did not end with the capture of the Dukla Pass by the Soviets. Between Oct. 25 and Oct. 27, on the road between the Dukla Pass and Svidnik , in the farms and villages of the Kapisova Brook Valley, occurred one of the hardest fought tank/infantry battles of World War II, which then became the "Valley of Death."

On Oct. 19, 1944 General K.S. Moskalenko, the commander of the Soviet 38th Army and attached 1st Czechoslovak Army, received a directive from Marshal I.S. Konev, commander of the 1st Ukrainian Front, criticizing him for the recent unsuccessful attacks south of Dukla Pass and ordered him to prepare his next attack. Gen. Moskalenko assembled five rifle divisions (211th, 241st, 305th, 359th and 70th Guards) under 67th Rifle Corps and deployed 703 guns and mortars in the main breakthrough sector. The attack was supported by the remnants of the 4th Guards Tank Corps, 12th Guards Tank Brigade, 31st Tank Corp, and 1st Czechoslovakian Tank Brigade and was preceded by mine clearing of the key approaches.

With the fog and heavy rains which had impeded the Allied advance during the preceding weeks subsidising, the battle in the "Valley of Death" began at 11:20 PM on Oct. 24th. The Allied attack was preceded by an 80 minute artillery barrage. In the early hours of Oct. 25th, supported by aerial attacks, the Soviets began their advance. The Soviet attack was met by the German fire of 17 artillery and 20 mortar batteries which fired over 7,500 rounds that day. The Soviet in turn fired 32,000 artillery rounds and their Air Force, dropped 163 tons of bombs over the German positions.

At the village of Nizana Pisana the tanks of 12th Guards Tank Brigade encountered minefields and received heavy enemy fire. The brigade sustained heavy losses and after clearing the road of the mines, again moved forward. A heavy tank battle soon erupted. During the afternoon of Oct. 26, the 70th Guards Rifle Division, actively supported by tanks, captured Kapisova after heavy fighting, while the 305th Rifle Division took Dobroslava.

The Soviet attack on Oct. 27 again met fierce resistance from German armor, infantry, and artillery (7,500 rounds fired). The German forces continued their tactic of infantry counterattacks supported by small groups of tanks (6 - 12). Despite heavy artillery (43,000 rounds) and aerial support the progress of 67th Rifle Corps was insignificant and the offensive was finally suspended. The Soviet advance after three days of near continuous fighting was only 6 km. During the less than 3 months of fighting in the Carpatho-Dukla operation, Allied forces suffered horrendous losses of both men and equipment. Casualties were estimated at 84,000 Soviet soldiers were either killed, wounded or missing, while the Czechoslovakians lost more than 6,000 soldiers.

As part of the aftermath of the battle the Snina region was devastated: 918 homes were totally destroyed, 2,217 homes were heavily damaged, 11 villages were 90% destroyed, 14 villages were 50% destroyed, and 55 bridges were destroyed. Sadly, 250 civilians were killed during battle, and 180 civilians were seriously injured by land mines alone.

[Reservoir Dog]

That's alot. Let me first see if it fits. If not, we will have to condense a little.

EDIT - Wow. it took it! And it looks good. I thought for sure it wouldn't take that much text but it does. Scary. This will add another side of the map. If you have that much for Axis I can do it! Thanks. You da man!!!

EDIT- The war damage is finished. The craters really break up the landscape and adds alot to it. There are 2 that are "tank stoppers" if hit right. There are 2 destroyed stugs, 1 german tank that is not a stock vehicle, and one T34. The addition of craters and fallen trees give alot of cover for inf in those areas. I think players may have tanks use them too. It didn't clutter up map like I thought. Wasn't sure I could make smaller ones look good but they look good to me (the texturing hides the rough areas). There are smaller and larger ones to represent the mortars and planes. There are two from bunker to mountain pass (from this moment on will be called the "one shot" craters). Great suggestion, sorry I was apprehensive at first.

RD

[OneShot]

RD;
Here is what I came up with the Axis:


Charged with crushing the Slovak National Uprising, which began on August 29, 1944, as well as defending the Dukla Pass was 1st Panzer (Tank) Army's Armeegruppe (Army Group) “Heinrici.” This battle group was comprised of the 1st, 8th, and 24th Panzer Divisions, 1st Hungarian Army, three Sturmgeshutze (StuG) Brigades, the 300th, 301st, and 311th; the 68th, 75th, 78th, 208th, 357th, 359th and 545th German Infantry Divisions; 101st German Jäger Division; 1st German Ski Jäger Division and part of 544th German Infantry Division as well as two recently replenished German Infantry Divisions, 168th and 357th.

On October 6 following nearly 30 days of fighting in the Dukla Pass, the allies captured the town of Dukla and the montain pass and German troops began to fall back 5 to 10 kilometers south to avoid the danger of encirclement. The German resistance under the command of Generaloberst G. Heinrici, famous for his defensive tactics, was vigorous and the defenders were particularly well entrenched. The German defensive strategy was to cut off the penetration corridors and then would frequently attacked the Soviet flanks with small group of tanks (6 - 12) accompanied by infantry. The Soviets countered with massed anti-tank guns and the Germans sustained heavy losses in the process.

The Germans were surprised initially by the Soviet thrusts due to the fact that large numbers of attacking tanks were not expected in such severe terrain (a first in WWII) that was found in the mountain passes of the Carpathians. The Germans had created a series of defensive positions they could fall back to using conscripted local labor which consisted of fortified bunkers, machine gun pillboxes, trenches, and foxholes. In addition the defenders had created tank traps, lookout towers and thousands of land mines, as well as wire entanglements in the forests and roads. The forests were partly cut, with logs dropped specifically to impede the inevitable Soviet onslaught of infantry, armored vehicles and tanks.

German artillery and mortar batteries were very effective partly because it was reported that their spotters equipped with radios and dressed in civil clothes, had infiltrated into the local population living in the small villages of the region. During this Operation it was also the first time in the history of WWII where massively used German anti-tanks weapons (“Panzerfaust” and “Panzerschreck”) were employed by the defenders with great effectiveness.

Oct. 24th, 1944 fog and heavy rainfall which had impeded the Allied advance during the preceding weeks began to subside. During the early morning hours of Oct. 25th in the Kapisova Brook Valley, soon to become the “Valley of Death,” the German defenders were awoken by a tremendous Soviet barrage that lasted 80 minutes, signaling the beginning of a new attack. The Germans countered with their own fire from 17 artillery and 20 mortar batteries which fired over 7,500 rounds that day. The Soviet Rifle Divisions and the Tank Brigades continued their advanced through the farms and valleys between the villages of Kapisova and Dobroslava and were met by determined German resistance. During the night of Oct 26 the German command reinforced the sector with the 168th Infantry Division. Much of the fighting was close and bloody for both sides, especially in the villages were it was house to house. Small armor battles were also taking place through out the valley. The Soviets suffered serious casualties caused by counter-attacking German infantry and tank units and the numerous mines laid in their path during the three days of the engagement.

Despite very active aerial support the Soviets were forced to suspend their operation on October 28, 1944 with every Soviet tank deployed either destroyed or disabled and with a forward advance of only 6 km in nearly three days of brutal fighting. German casualties are estimated at 54,000 soldiers (KIA, MIA, WIA).



If possible when I get to work in the morning (fortunately I do IT and Maintenance on 26 PC networked based work stations in our facility) I would like to reread these when my mind is a little clearer. I may want to edit, condense, punch up, etc... if it is not to late? Let me know. These are basically rough drafts that I threw together tonight, so hopefully we can change a bit if we need to hopefully? It would not be anthing major, just a little punching up if needed. All the info is accurate and correct just not sure if it flows like I would like it too! But if you are happy, I guess that is what matters most. It is all going on your map my friend. Just that this is what the players will see first, and I want to make a good impression from the start.

[OneShot]

That's alot. Let me first see if it fits. If not, we will have to condense a little.

EDIT - Wow. it took it! And it looks good. I thought for sure it wouldn't take that much text but it does. Scary. This will add another side of the map. If you have that much for Axis I can do it! Thanks. You da man!!!

EDIT- The war damage is finished. The craters really break up the landscape and adds alot to it. There are 2 that are "tank stoppers" if hit right. There are 2 destroyed stugs, 1 german tank that is not a stock vehicle, and one T34. The addition of craters and fallen trees give alot of cover for inf in those areas. I think players may have tanks use them too. It didn't clutter up map like I thought. Wasn't sure I could make smaller ones look good but they look good to me (the texturing hides the rough areas). There are smaller and larger ones to represent the mortars and planes. There are two from bunker to mountain pass (from this moment on will be called the "one shot" craters). Great suggestion, sorry I was apprehensive at first.

RD

Thanks RD, glad it all fits, shocks the you know what out of me also! Can't wait to see the finishing touches, sure they will look great and very realistic, you do good work my friend! And thanks for the name on the craters, LOL!!!!!!

[Reservoir Dog]

If you want to edit anything that's good with me. I have read through the Allies and was very interesting. It would hold my attention even if I was a casual reader I believe. I will drop this one into the map and wait to hear from you tomorrow. When your good with it, we can let it go. I have everything done on the map and a decent banner for the post of the beta. I guess the marathon will be for the beta 1. Sorry that everything got rushed but I am looking forward to the community seeing this collaborative project:d .

RD

Edit- FYI the Unreal engine doesn't like quotation marks ". I have had to drop them. I found out on the map selection page that I couldn't have it as "Valley of Death" but Valley of Death. The engine just ends the statement when it runs into one.

[OneShot]

RD;

Just looking over the Axis narrative here quickly I have already corrected a typo/spelling error. (I have written party instead of partly 4th paragraph down 1st sentence). Problem with spell/checker, does not know if you are using the word in the proper context! Gonna have to look this over real good in the morning and proof it for you.

[OneShot]

Are we good with with the names, anyone else you can think of?

RD

I remember T3S (Tru3Slaughter) in on the map a good bit of the time also! And of course RGN_HellHund (L_Dog) was there as much as anyone, probably more!!!!!

[OneShot]

If you want to edit anything that's good with me. I have read through the Allies and was very interesting. It would hold my attention even if I was a casual reader I believe. I will drop this one into the map and wait to hear from you tomorrow. When your good with it, we can let it go. I have everything done on the map and a decent banner for the post of the beta. I guess the marathon will be for the beta 1. Sorry that everything got rushed but I am looking forward to the community seeing this collaborative project:d .

RD

No problem, this clears my "calendar" for this weekends marathon, so it works out for all! :d

[Reservoir Dog]

I remember T3S (Tru3Slaughter) in on the map a good bit of the time also! And of course RGN_HellHund (L_Dog) was there as much as anyone, probably more!!!!!

Yes, I have a cumulative list from the previous posts. They are on it. Other than the names from the other posts, is there anyone else? If One shot gives me the thumbs up the beta will be out there tomorrow. Just wanted to see if Mike had any more names from his nifty game stat server site.

RD

[Mike Nomad]

Yes, I have a cumulative list from the previous posts. They are on it. Other than the names from the other posts, is there anyone else? If One shot gives me the thumbs up the beta will be out there tomorrow. Just wanted to see if Mike had any more names from his nifty game stat server site.

RD



We are good to go.:wink1:

[OneShot]

RD;
I feel comfortable and am more happy with the history now since I have looked at it this AM. Read it over and if you like it I would say use it!!! :wink1: It is rather lengthy as you said and we can always condense it down if you like? I tried to list all units involved on both sides during the entire 3 months of the Carpo-Dukla campaign (of course not all units engaged at the same time) without being to specific. This should give us a little leeway with the historical zealots.

I have tried to "bold" any changes I made in the narratives so look for them, or simply cut and paste the entire works again, which is ever easier for you. Sorry for the late changes, but it should all work for your map now, bottom line right?

Again remember that I never actually found physical eviedence that the Tigers were used in the Valley of Death battle, but based their presence on the fact that 1st Panzer Division had recieved a large contingent of Tiger 1's late in 43' and one could reasonably assume even given the fact that the German armor units strength at this times in the Dukla Pass campaign was only around 25% of their normal compliment, a Tiger or two could still have been engaged there! We may take some heat on this assumption but with the above facts and stated argument someone is gonna have to give us definitive proof they were not there, and I should have come up with that proof based on all my research. I'll argue that point till the cows come home!

[Mike Nomad]

Leave the Tigers in the map.


Never forget these all important and crucial factors;

PLAYABILITY - BALANCE - ENTERTAINMENT

Without giving due consideration to these three factors, the map will die an early death.

Just look over the custom map graveyard.... :B

[OneShot]

Leave the Tigers in the map.


Never forget these all important and crucial factors;

PLAYABILITY - BALANCE - ENTERTAINMENT

Without giving due consideration to these three factors, the map will die an early death.

Just look over the custom map graveyard.... :B

Absolutely, the TIGERS nor anything else are going no where right RD!!!!!!! I'll argue their historical presence with anyone at the forums! If nothing else I'll dazzle them with my B.S.:p Besides I love to kill them with the 85's, very gratifing! LOL:p

[Reservoir Dog]

RD;
I feel comfortable and am more happy with the history now since I have looked at it this AM. Read it over and if you like it I would say use it!!! :wink1: It is rather lengthy as you said and we can always condense it down if you like? I tried to list all units involved on both sides during the entire 3 months of the Carpo-Dukla campaign (of course not all units engaged at the same time) without being to specific. This should give us a little leeway with the historical zealots.

I have tried to "bold" any changes I made in the narratives so look for them, or simply cut and paste the entire works again, which is ever easier for you. Sorry for the late changes, but it should all work for your map now, bottom line right?

Again remember that I never actually found physical eviedence that the Tigers were used in the Valley of Death battle, but based their presence on the fact that 1st Panzer Division had recieved a large contingent of Tiger 1's late in 43' and one could reasonably assume even given the fact that the German armor units strength at this times in the Dukla Pass campaign was only around 25% of their normal compliment, a Tiger or two could still have been engaged there! We may take some heat on this assumption but with the above facts and stated argument someone is gonna have to give us definitive proof they were not there, and I should have come up with that proof based on all my research. I'll argue that point till the cows come home!

I will just do an erase and do the copy and pasting again. It will be much easier to do that than try to edit. The editor give you a small single line for everything so its hard to see paragraphs and find certain words.

At this point, I feel everything is balanced and I'm not about to make drastic changes like removing Tigers. A little debate and a little contraversy is always good for a project anyway since people will be talking about it. Any talk is attention. I may catch some heat from the flag I used at the barracks. Heat=interest.

I have everything I need to launch beta 1. You guys should see the post sometime in the early afternoon on this forum and RO's.

Reservoir Dog