View Full Version : Info Mapping Critiques & Suggestions
03-21-2007, 07:05 AM
I've noticed I've been taken to task in another forum for being far too "positive" towards mappers and their new releases. I respectfully submit, Nothing could be farther from the truth.
In reality; I'd say I make it my business to encourge mappers to continue to support RO and at the same time, offer advice and make helpful suggestions from my observations. I believe in constructive criticism not destructive criticism.
Example A: Sturgisov Farm;
What my critic(s) missed were the numerous sessions IN THE MAP Online with the author of the map. He spent a few HOURS with us IN THE MAP using RO VOIP asking questions and listening to what we all had to say about the map, its playability, what was needed to improve the map, desired additions and definite changes needed for better gameplay. The author, Reservoir Dog, took notes constantly and is fully aware of all the input myself and the RGN crew have offered.
Example B: Gorlitz;
FlashPanHunter the author, released the map and shortly thereafter I posted a number of needed fixes, changes and suggestions for improved gameplay. I posted them in the Gorlitz thread in the Beta Map area of the RO forums.. All posted early on.
Go read them all and FPH's "blow-off" replies to me. Then, take notice that he began to ignore me. So, I discontinued any dialog as it was all one-sided. Watch as the time goes by, all the points I originally presented are now re-appearing from other players. All the same items. FPH has fixed NOTHING.
Just a few examples.... many mappers have heard from me on an ongoing basis. I will go the extra mile with any mapper who is responsive. I feel that I am a supporter of RO first and a player second. As such, I will primarily look at any map in these ways,
Will the map further heighten the enjoyment factor for RO?
Will the map bring back players for repeat play?
DOES THE MAP HAVE TRUE "WOW" IMPACT ON PLAYERS?Having those items in mind, please be aware the critique of a map in all its nuances takes in depth game play. I might add a sincere and honest approach by a player to gain a solid gaming experience of what the map offers and if it delivers true gaming enjoyment is also critically needed. All parochial aspects of purists and historians must be put aside to achieve an honest evaluation of a map.
The notion that I am a "wowie zowie" cheerleader for all mappers is a somewhat unsettling and truly a distorted view of how I approach the maps, their authors and their concepts. In fact, it tends to indicate that my efforts, however sincere, are not effective or helpful. That hurts as its truly incorrect and totally distorted.
True, some people are busy blowing smoke up some mapper's arses and at the same time busy kissing them too! Seemingly, despite their comments of dislike, certain of those mappers eat that nonsense up. Those clowns are the egomaniacs amongst us. There will always be the brown noses and lemmings in this world. Remember, they are there for a purpose - in this case; to keep the mappers who think they are "legends in their own minds" happy and their lustful egos satisfied.
Actually, I'm elated that my efforts here at RGN and in the RO forums have finally been noticed. I firmly believe the effective role I and the other members of RGN play in helping mappers make their maps the best they can be is a "job well done" and seemingly appreciated by the vast majority of active RO mappers/modders/scripters/modellers/mutator authors out there.
In closing it would be nice although not necessary, if all the mappers whom I and all the RGN members have, in one way or another, worked with would stand up and be counted. For all to see.
03-21-2007, 09:01 AM
that about says it all. i agree Mike, Resevoir Dog has been extremely receptive to any and all suggestions
03-21-2007, 10:15 AM
IMO every map is unique and represent a tremendous amount of creativity, research, planning, and plain hard work and trying to judge one against the other is ludacris! All you guys are winners (two of best in the community are right here) :D OneShot
Well as a mapper i have some things i need to say about certain maps
and the hooray reactions it received from the community.
But i wait with this until i think it's needed to say.
Oneshot posting suggestions ain't the same as judging. I know how to make
stuff but i'm in darkness about the gameplay iff noone post how they experienced
the gameplay. And then i mean serious honest experience in gameplay.
Suggestions where you share certain parts where the gameplay showed flaws. As example when a certain team don't make it to a certain area and are pinned down without any flank. That kind of stuff. The best way is to gather this on a full server.
The last thing we need are only Hip Hop Hooray we love your work posts cause it doesn't force us to take a second more criticasl look to our work....
As an example i noticed that Mike Nomad approach almost any released custom map in a positive way. This could be his personality It's a nice guy and maybe he don't want to insult the mapper. This is off course a good thing but could work the wrong way when a mapper believes his work is great and he close his eyes for bad things.
Don't be afraid to tell the mapper what you think that he could have done better.
Cause telling nothing at all won't help at all.
Maybe a mapper look at maps in a different way. The problem then might
be i screw up with gameplay. And that's the moment the feedback and suggestions are needed.....
Mike, the intention of my post was nowhere to tell you are a
"wowie zowie" cheerleader for all mappers.
Oneshot posted something where he stated it's hard for him to post
comments and i tried to clear some stuff.
More then once i noticed reactions like "excellent map" "Great map"
While there in fact there are much things which need work.
I can post several examples but i won't cause we doesn't really need
another internet drama.
To be honest i think i wrote a very decent post about comments mappers use
and think it's translated way over the line overhere. That's why i posted the entire
post overhere. This way it shows the context the statement was made.
There was not one moment that i doubted your sincere devotion for the
Red Orchestra community. I just wrote down my observations.
Maybe i should have stated a little different and should have mentioned you
add good and usefull comments too, but when i wrote the post the overall
positive posts on maps which really needed more work came to my mind.
P.S Sometimes destructive criticism is needed to wake up some people.....
03-21-2007, 10:39 AM
Drecks, You've always been a good friend and I will always regard you as such. Because of that I feel I can be frank and to the point with you. When it comes to your maps....
I've said this before and I will say it again... Its a known fact that you devote so much effort, thought and creativity to your maps that little is left to be corrected when you release a beta. Be it beta 1 or beta 6 or whatever... they've always been highly enjoyable and superbly playable.
When I have offered suggestions, you've never blown me off... you've listened intently and responded in kind. I can't ask for more than that. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent and meaning. Now, looking back I am certain I misunderstood your meaning. For that, I apologize.... but in all reality, you must understand I am sick and tired of the bandying about of both myself and the RGN crew... we try damn hard to support all the efforts taken to keep RO interests at a high level within reason.
I've jumped all over the "historical accuracy freaks". I'll do it again... Balance and playability are my forte.. I believe that since this is a game and not a history lesson it should be addressed as such. You are ever so correct that to get things done or at least paid attention to one must offer what appears to be destructive criticism. The bad part of that is ... when its used, inevitably more harm than good is done. I know, just look at certain attitudes out there now.
I'm all for support for all who create goodies for RO. I encourage the ingenuity in every aspect of its use. Additionally, I look forward to your next beta with open arms as I always have. So far, the screenshots look great. Especially with the new skins.
03-21-2007, 06:34 PM
(cleveland steamer @ Mar 16 2007, 05:21 PM) *
I love your work and almost feel stupid saying "try this, or fix that" when I don't have the slightest idea what it entails?!? Mapping is waaaay beyond my PC skill set.
I feel I speak for the silent majority who love your maps and appreciate the time you put in so we all can enjoy.
Cheers to Drecks! (go ahead and drink what is in front of you now)
Absolutely Steamer!! The mappers are so talented and work so hard I can't help but feel bad when I try to post a suggestion. I realize the guys want/request feedback but I find it hard to comply for fear of them thinking I am judging their work, which I would never attempt.
Speaking about judging, as far as the RO contest is concerned, my two cents: IMO every map is unique and represent a tremendous amount of creativity, research, planning, and plain hard work and trying to judge one against the other is ludicrous! All you guys are winners (two of best in the community are right here) in my book, and as a member of the RO community let me add my appreciation and sincere thanks for your contributions to our enjoyment of the game! :d
03-21-2007, 09:14 PM
.... but in all reality, you must understand I am sick and tired of the bandying about of both myself and the RGN crew... we try damn hard to support all the efforts taken to keep RO interests at a high level within reason.
Thank you for that Mike. No offense to any mapper, but I don't blow smoke up anyone's arse!!!! If you notice in my "complete" post I was quoting and agreeing with a member there! When I post I speak my opinions/thoughts, and when I agree with someones else's views/thoughts/opinions I quote them!
Yesterday, 07:12 AM Post #33
Group: *AHz* Development
Joined: 25-May 03
From: South Central PA
Member No.: 186
If something works, we like to hear that as well but not just "I love it!", but WHY it works or WHY it is good as is, etc. The silenet majority probably don't care or realize or are content with maps as they are but even good things need to be conveyed so that we know when we are doing something right.
Sucking up to and kissing mapper's collective or individual asses doesn't help, as Drecks said. There is plenty of that around but the WHY, WHAT, HOW is much more important. I've had enough smoke blown up my ass over last few years to know it is more annoying than helpful.
I have been playing RO for less than three months, so I am basically an inexperienced newbie, and other than a few stock maps rarely do I find a full server (exception these past few weekends here at RGN's server.) I have a family and work full time, so other than on weekends will I have an opportunity to play on-line. I am sure there are full servers out there, just not when I happen to be on-line. How can I make an informed, educated and logical suggestion or opinion as to game play or content with out at least a little experience or some sort of expertise especially when you play on a map designed for 32 players and you in fact only have 4 or 5 at a time? It would in fact just be a "judgement" on my part, and that I will not put forth without some basis to judge.
Finally, I was raised to be positive or be quiet, if you have nothing good to say about someone, be quiet!! Sorry but that is my upbringing. My only intent was to echo Mike sentiment above and show my appreciation for mappers contribution to my enjoyment of the game. I was not trying to "BROWN NOSE" anyone or kiss anyone's you know what!
Without mappers/moders what are the options guys, playing the same old stock map, over, and over, and over, and over....!!! I know some guys play the stock Arad and other maps like that, 24/7, day in and day out, all the time, and that's OK, just not for me. I guess my best option is to take my own advice be quiet on the subject, and save someone some "flames" before this turns into a conflagration!
No one knows me and I don't know them, we're all anonymous so why should I even care, I honestly don't know? But can you imagine having to justify or defend yourself for giving a compliment! Again not meaning any disrespect to anyone, just trying to figure things out for myself by venting.
Sorry guys for making you all have to read my rantings!
03-22-2007, 02:46 AM
I just wanted to drop a quick line to say that I have appreciated everyone's help and support for trying to "break into" the mapping world. Mike, you have helped me on so many levels to test my map. You were one of the first servers to play it and give me feedback. I have gotten more feedback on your server and these forums than any other source. You have been quite honest about the good, the bad, and the ugly.
There is a world of difference in map testing from buddies on a lan or playing bots to a full server of experienced players. You find out so much that you did right and did wrong. And Drecks, you have given me alot of insight from an experienced mapper's opinion. The lighting trick, minefielding the river, church courtyard, "trees here and there" and the optimizing suggestions have all worked very well.
I will be doing extensive testing on Beta 5 of Sturgisov farm and still doing alot of terrain and bot tweaking for a least a few more weeks. But it looks great, runs good (everything is working right). I wouldn't be looking at a potentially very cool map if it weren't for you guys.
Mike has given me a whole list of "improvements" while we have been on-line. He has also told me that there is alot of potential with this map. As a beginning mapper, I get alot of criticisms and little constructive feedback. I am very glad that Mike has encouraged me through this process. Big thanks to both of you guys.
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